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jacob.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:37 pm    Post subject: Vanaru Question - Not a repost! Reply with quote

Alright. So with a turn key conversion from vanaru, "once you remove your vanagon wiring harness, just snap together four connectors to connect the subaru wiring." My question is, How do they do this? If I'm reading this correctly, does this mean there is no modification to the harness in the van? You use the stock harness? I don't quite understand.

If what they are saying is that you don't have to modify a harness, then how do they accomplish this, and what is stopping other people from taking a subaru engine and turning it into a plug and play engine? What do you do to make it plug and play? The concept doesn't quite make sense to me.

It seems that If you could just buy a rebuild subaru engine, and buy all the parts seperately, and figure out how they do their wiring, you could have a vanaru package for about half the price, right?

I'd like somebody to clear this up for me. I'm not asking a question about the conversions available, and I don't want people to argue about conversions. I just want to know what they do to the engine to make it directly plug and play. It seems too simple, but I cant grip the concept.

EDIT: I was looking at this picture and I don't see any wiring. Is there a seperate harness you install? Or is there wires attatched to the engine as a part of the "turn key" package.

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Rhinoculips
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They do convert the suby wiring harness. The wires they speak of are connections in the black box. Like the water temp gauge wire and other misc. wires. The "plug and play" part of the deal is that they assemble all parts for the conversion. You have no leg work or research to do.
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wiring harness is the most time consuming and frustrating aspect of the whole conversion. If you wanted to do it yourself there are ways and it has been done many times. Do some searching and lurking here for any answers on a subaru conversion that you may have- http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/subaruvanagon/
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jacob.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhinoculips wrote:
From what I understand, they do convert the suby wiring harness. The wires they speak of are connections in the black box. Like the water temp gauge wire and other misc. wires etc. The plug and play part of the deal, they assemble all parts for the conversion. You have no leg work, research to do.


So they provide you with a modified subaru harness and you have to remove your vanagon harness and install the subaru one? Is there more then one part to the harness, or is it all one big piece. For example, all of the wiring in the front of the van, under the dash, does it all connect to the ECU? If so this still seems like its a hard wiring job. How do they make it easier?
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a sub-wiring harness that goes from the ECU to the engine that is removed and replaced with a modded subaru harness that ties into the subaru ECU. If you aren't patient or skilled with a soldering iron(pretty easy) the plug and play option will be worth the money.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

syncrodoka wrote:
There is a sub-wiring harness that goes from the ECU to the engine that is removed and replaced with a modded subaru harness that ties into the subaru ECU.


Alright. So if just the sub wiring harness that goes from the ECU to the engine is removed, then couldn't you JUST modify that part of the subaru harness? Or is this "wiring hell" just the sub harness? The rest of the harness remains stock vw? Sorry for this confusion, but I"m just trying to understand this.

EDIT: So my guess is that all of this wiring pictured here, they give you this piece of harness, which only deals with the wiring in the stretch of space from under the rear seat where the ecu is to the engine?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My other guess would be that this piece of harness is the one, that if you choose to do so yourself, you modify and spend a bunch of time with a headache and hunched over a wiring diagram with wire cutters?
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Rhinoculips
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacob. wrote:
Rhinoculips wrote:
From what I understand, they do convert the suby wiring harness. The wires they speak of are connections in the black box. Like the water temp gauge wire and other misc. wires etc. The plug and play part of the deal, they assemble all parts for the conversion. You have no leg work, research to do.


So they provide you with a modified subaru harness and you have to remove your vanagon harness and install the subaru one? Is there more then one part to the harness, or is it all one big piece. For example, all of the wiring in the front of the van, under the dash, does it all connect to the ECU? If so this still seems like its a hard wiring job. How do they make it easier?


Yes. They supply the harness. You would remove the VW harness and ECU. Then install the suby ones. There are technically two harnesses. There is the main harness going to the ECU and an "engine" harness. The engine harness will already be installed under the air intake manifold. The connectors between the two harnesses are easily identifiable. Each connector will only work with its mate. i.e. idiot-proof
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Rhinoculips
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacob. wrote:
syncrodoka wrote:
There is a sub-wiring harness that goes from the ECU to the engine that is removed and replaced with a modded subaru harness that ties into the subaru ECU.


Alright. So if just the sub wiring harness that goes from the ECU to the engine is removed, then couldn't you JUST modify that part of the subaru harness? Or is this "wiring hell" just the sub harness? The rest of the harness remains stock vw? Sorry for this confusion, but I"m just trying to understand this.


The entire VW harness and ECU are removed.
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wiring hell is trying to figure out where all the wires are supposed to tie in from the sub harness that goes from the ecu to the engine and have it tie into the 7 pin connector in the black box along with several other wires that the vanagon body needs(alt light, ign on etc.) They don't call it "wiring fun" for a reason- I have done 2 myself. This might help you visualise it but the engine harness isn't pictured- http://www.subaruvanagon.com/tom/Getting%20Started.htm

P.S. that site belongs to a highly respected subaru conversion guy that does wiring harnesses.
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Rhinoculips
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you trying to decide if you want to "tackle" the wiring yourself? If you feel comfortable doing the rest of the conversion, but not the wiring, have someone else to the harness work. Someone like Tom Shiels www.subaruvanagon.com He did mine and made some custom modifications to fit my needs. I highly recommend his services. I bombarded him with questions such as yours and he had the patience of a saint. Nice guy indeed.

Have you joined the yahoo group "SubaruVanagon" yet? http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/subaruvanagon Lots of info there.
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jacob.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhinoculips wrote:
Are you trying to decide if you want to "tackle" the wiring yourself? If you feel comfortable doing the rest of the conversion, but not the wiring, have someone else to the harness work. Someone like Tom Shiels www.subaruvanagon.com He did mine and made some custom modifications to fit my needs. I highly recommend his services. I bombarded him with questions such as yours and he had the patience of a saint. Nice guy indeed.

Have you joined the yahoo group "SubaruVanagon" yet? http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/subaruvanagon Lots of info there.


Yes I've read just about every single page of that site over the past few months. I am confident I can do the entire engine conversion (with a little help from some people) except the wiring. How much does it cost to get the wiring done?

The conversion seems to get more clear every time i do research, and it seems pretty straight forward now. I just don't get the wiring. The mechanical stuff I can do. I can order all the parts and replace parts on the engine before installing and I can install all the adapter pieces, reverse coolant manifolds, stuff like that.
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Rhinoculips
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacob. wrote:
Rhinoculips wrote:
Are you trying to decide if you want to "tackle" the wiring yourself? If you feel comfortable doing the rest of the conversion, but not the wiring, have someone else to the harness work. Someone like Tom Shiels www.subaruvanagon.com He did mine and made some custom modifications to fit my needs. I highly recommend his services. I bombarded him with questions such as yours and he had the patience of a saint. Nice guy indeed.

Have you joined the yahoo group "SubaruVanagon" yet? http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/subaruvanagon Lots of info there.


Yes I've read just about every single page of that site over the past few months. I am confident I can do the entire engine conversion (with a little help from some people) except the wiring. How much does it cost to get the wiring done?

The conversion seems to get more clear every time i do research, and it seems pretty straight forward now. I just don't get the wiring. The mechanical stuff I can do. I can order all the parts and replace parts on the engine before installing and I can install all the adapter pieces, reverse coolant manifolds, stuff like that.


The cost depends on what you want done. I would suggest contacting Tom Shiels and talk to him about it. I had some custom mods done and thus paid more. IIRC, the baseline conversion is around $600-$650. Doing all the leg work getting the parts you want, engine, etc and having Tom do the harness will be a lot cheaper than buying a "plug and play" from Vanaru. Obviously, there is a bit more head scratching doing it this way while you make sure one conversion part works with another.

Keep in mind, OBD1 and OBD2 are different beasts. Depending on who you talk too, some say OBD1 is easier. Others say the opposite.

Where are you? If by wild chance you are in Colorado, I would be glad to show you my '89 Westy with an EJ22 so you can picture things better. Even take it for a drive too.
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smallcar wants $650 for the wiring mods- http://www.smallcar.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29897
Tom has the technology to do a harness for you as well as troubleshoot a harness that has been done by someone else if needed- http://www.subaruvanagon.com/conversion_services_Wiring.htm
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has been explained a few different ways already, but I will add another one in hopes that it helps with the clarity of it all.

What the plug and play Subaru harness does is allow you to attach the modified Subaru engine/ECU wiring harness to the Vanagon wiring harness with a minimum of modifications. The absolute minumim modification is to completely remove the stock WBX engine/ECU wiring harness and replace it with the modified Subaru engine/ECU harness.

The connections that the Subaru engine/ECU harness must make with the Vanagon are located in the black box located on the left side of the engine compartment. When Vanaru states, "once you remove your vanagon wiring harness, just snap together four connectors to connect the subaru wiring.", they mean that they outfit the Subaru wiring harness in such a way that you do not have to splice those four wires together. They come with the correct connectors to allow you to simply plug the appropriate four Vanagon wires to the corrosponding Subaru wires. The rest of the wiring harnes conversion has been don for you and has been made as simple as possible for you to attach.

If you want to see what the Subaru wiring harness starts out looking like and what it ends up like, take a look at the pictures of my own conversion ( I really need to get that installed). See the coil of raw wiring on the left of the last photo? Those are the final wires left that need to be connected to the "black box".

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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jacob.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhinoculips wrote:
jacob. wrote:
Rhinoculips wrote:
Are you trying to decide if you want to "tackle" the wiring yourself? If you feel comfortable doing the rest of the conversion, but not the wiring, have someone else to the harness work. Someone like Tom Shiels www.subaruvanagon.com He did mine and made some custom modifications to fit my needs. I highly recommend his services. I bombarded him with questions such as yours and he had the patience of a saint. Nice guy indeed.

Have you joined the yahoo group "SubaruVanagon" yet? http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/subaruvanagon Lots of info there.


Yes I've read just about every single page of that site over the past few months. I am confident I can do the entire engine conversion (with a little help from some people) except the wiring. How much does it cost to get the wiring done?

The conversion seems to get more clear every time i do research, and it seems pretty straight forward now. I just don't get the wiring. The mechanical stuff I can do. I can order all the parts and replace parts on the engine before installing and I can install all the adapter pieces, reverse coolant manifolds, stuff like that.


The cost depends on what you want done. I would suggest contacting Tom Shiels and talk to him about it. I had some custom mods done and thus paid more. IIRC, the baseline conversion is around $600-$650. Doing all the leg work getting the parts you want, engine, etc and having Tom do the harness will be a lot cheaper than buying a "plug and play" from Vanaru. Obviously, there is a bit more head scratching doing it this way while you make sure one conversion part works with another.

Keep in mind, OBD1 and OBD2 are different beasts. Depending on who you talk too, some say OBD1 is easier. Others say the opposite.

Where are you? If by wild chance you are in Colorado, I would be glad to show you my '89 Westy with an EJ22 so you can picture things better. Even take it for a drive too.


I'm in ohio. Ive only ever seen one subaru conversion, and that was on the day I bought my vanagon. It was the guys other van. And I didn't know about subaru conversions then.

I'd like to just do a simple ej25 conversion for around 2000 dollars. Even ej22 would be fine with me.
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For that price you are doing that wiring harness yourself. Get a wiring diagram from KEP and look in the files section of the yahoo group for more diagrams.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure if you have seen this site -

http://www.weidefamily.net/vanagon/

Lots of info. Brent also has some wiring info on his directory that people use when doing their own harness, but I am not sure how to get to it.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd invest in a wiring harness from Small Car or another vendor. For the money it is a good deal. I too felt very comfortable with turning a wrench on all the mechanical components of an EJ25 conversion but did not want to FUp the harness so I paid the bucks for a premade one. Best money I ever spent (YMMV).

And it is plug and play. The VW engine harness mates up in the 'black box' in the engine compartment. The remade Subaru harness also mates up to the VW plugs in the same location. ECU also goes under the rear seat.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way Subaru wires their cars is very different from the way VW wires theirs. The VW system is in many ways far superior and is very suitable to doing conversions, say swapping an engine from a Vanagon to a buggy. The Subaru doesn't separate out the FI wiring from the rest of the vehicles wiring like VW does. In their original wiring harness there are going to be wires running to engine sensors and injectors, plus wires for horns, headlights, and ABS braking systems, etc. To build the wiring harness for a conversion you need to removes the dozens and dozens of wires that are not needed from the Subaru harness and then rebuild the remaining harness so that it fits the way the engine is installed in the Vanagon.

On a VW wire colors seem to mean something, to Subaru they don't. Ground wires on a Vanagon are brown, whereas ground wires on a Subaru are typically black with any and all variety of tracer colors, but some ground wires don't have any black at all, in the harness I built for my conversion I have both yellow and red ground wires mixed in with the black wires. Additionally wire colors for one year Subaru may not be the same as for other years and not even what is shown in the factory wiring diagram for the year of manufacture.

When you looks at the factory wiring diagrams for VW and Subaru, the VW diagrams seem like simplicity themselves, at least that is MHO.

My self built harness has worked well for several years at this point, but I don't think that if I did another swap I would build my own again, there are just too many wires to keep track of. If I were doing a swap for someone else I would definitely buy the harness. There are a few other places that you can save money by doing things yourself. Anyone with welding skills can do their own oil pan shortening, or built their own throttle linkage. If you have the equipment to weld aluminium you could also build your own reverse coolant manifold, though getting the cut just right might be a problem if you didn't have a pattern to work from.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhinoculips wrote:
They do convert the suby wiring harness. The wires they speak of are connections in the black box. Like the water temp gauge wire and other misc. wires. The "plug and play" part of the deal is that they assemble all parts for the conversion. You have no leg work or research to do.


its a complete package, hans gets the motor does a new timing belts , rollers , seals, does the cooling systemlds, oil pan, modified harness, intake, stainless exhaust, head gaskets, engine mounts, bell housing, clutch , press plate, o2 sensors, accelerator pedal , fly by wire set up , OBDII set up

plug n play, nice clean set up
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