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Glasser
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:14 am    Post subject: Need help guys....... Reply with quote

After sitting in the garage for about a month (Unheated garage) we had a nice day today so decided to do a bank run in the buggy.
I started it up and it sounded like it had a dead cylinder but I thought maybe she was just cold (dual carbs no pre heat at all). I thought I'll drive it easy to warm her up. I get around the corner from my house and she dies on me. No gas. Checked the tank, it's 3/4's full. head back to the back of the car and I see the fuel filter (plastic see through type) is FULL of a rusty mess. I had a little tool kit with me so I took the filter off and blew through it back-wards to clear it and reinstalled. Took a bit of spitting and farting and she came back to life full song. Did a nut and headed over to the parts store where I immediately replaced the fuel filter with a new one.

Here is my concern. I used a BRAND NEW tank with ALL NEW fuel line last year when I built this car. How on earth can I have so much crap in my tank?
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LeeVW
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess would be the junk came from a gas station's rusty tanks.
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Dinubadave
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
LeeVW wrote: My guess would be the junk came from a gas station's rusty tanks.


I agree with LewVW, my first guess would be the source of the fuel I put into the tank.

Dave
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TC/TeamEvil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you mistakenly coat the inside of the new tank to "protect" it against rust thereby trapping a moisture layer (from the simple water level in the humid air itself)
between the coating and the metal of the tank?

Pop the hood and fuel filler tube and shine a light inside, you may in trouble . . . or you may be just fine. Either way, you HAVE to find out.
It's not gonna get any better on it's own and there are too many filters between the storage tank and your carb for it to have come from the gas station.
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BL3Manx
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gas goes bad after a while. The most volatile ingredients evaporate and leave a residue(varnish). Maybe its accumulated varnish and it looks like rust. Do you use Stabil over the winter?
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Glasser
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK I have some pictures. I did not coat the tank with anything, should I have?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The bottom of the tank definitely looks like its rusting. WHY?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What are my options now???
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TC/TeamEvil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That will continue to come loose and clog the filter (and pump if it's ahead of the filter in line) forever. I had a similar situation in my first 914 and it just got worse as time passed.

You need to remove the tank, remove the outlet and screen, tape the opening closed, fill it with rock salt, ice cold water, a bag of ice cubes and a length of chain. Tape the filler opening closed, then roll it/toss it/kick it all over your yard for an afternoon. Take a break, roll the tank, have a beverage, kick the tank around, get the mail and boot the tank across the lawn on your way to the door.

Then drain the tank, the chain will come out as you do (DON'T use rocks or nuts and bolts or anything like that, too much trouble) and fit a hair drier to the filler neck and turn it on. This will dry up the tank nicely, and it'll be like new inside. REALLY, this method works wonderfully.

Then go on-line and see which tank coating is most recommended this week. There are lots to choose from, just be sure that it's not susceptible to the newer fuel formulas that keep coming up these days. Certain anti-evaporative additives can melt plastic fuel floats and such. You hear this kinda thing all of the time. Just disregard the myths and find a coating that's proven to work.

Follow the directions, re-fit the screen and outlet, re-install, and you're be laughing.

Not a TON of work, but WAY worth it and no problems from then on.

Luck,

TC
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Dinubadave
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What he said... Smile
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Baja68
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would contact the tank supplier and ask them to warranty the unit out.

There is no acceptable reason for a new tank to rust on the inside.

my 2 cents.
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wythac
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brent,
What is your time worth? Unless you have special mods to your tanks specific to your car, as many of us do, all that separates you from a brand new tank is 100 bucks and phone call.
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Glasser
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks all.

I just called the VW shop where I bought the tank from and started the conversation by asking, "Hey do you have to coat your new tanks before you use them"? He said "no why".

I filled him in, he said he would call his supplier and get back to me. They haven't had any issues at all to date. It would be nice to get a new tank out of the deal but not looking forward to relocating the bung so I get all the gas out of the tank (tank is in there at an angle) and relocating the filler neck.

I'll probably go the route TC has recommended. Thanks TC!

Not looking forward to pulling the hood off Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad ................................
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didget69
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And to add to the story: (from The Straight Dope)

"The shelf life of gasoline depends on the type of gas and the storage conditions and can range from a couple months to a couple years. One wild card is that gas you buy at the pump may already have been in storage for anywhere from days to months.

What makes gas go stale? Usually the first thing that happens is the lighter chemicals in it evaporate, leaving behind a heavier, less peppy product. Gasoline is an ideal motor vehicle fuel partly because it vaporizes readily to form a combustible mix with air. If it sits unused, however, its more volatile components waft away, leading to poorer engine performance. It's hard to tell how much punch your gas has lost without scientific testing, but don't worry; though your car might start a little harder, it'll still run (assuming it ran before), and there's little risk in burning the fuel if this is all that's gone wrong.

The second cause of bad gas is oxidation; some of the hydrocarbons in the fuel react with oxygen to produce new compounds, almost all of them worse than what you started with. When oxidation becomes a problem, you'll know it without lab tests--the gasoline gives off a sour odor. If you pour some into a glass container, you'll see it's turned dark, and you might find small, solid particles of gum. Using oxidized gasoline is a bad idea, since the gum can clog your fuel filter, create deposits in your fuel system (especially the injectors), and generally hurt performance.

Finally there's the problem of contamination. Water, which can cause gas-line freezing and other problems, is the main culprit--it usually gets into stored gas via condensation as temperatures fluctuate. If the gas is relatively fresh, a "fuel dryer" additive (basically isopropyl alcohol) can help by combining with the water to make a burnable mix that can be run through the system. Another potential problem caused by water is bacteria, although that's not nearly as common. Gas contaminated with dirt or rust is a no go, as the crud will foul your engine.

The push for reformulated gasoline using ethanol (such as E10, aka gasohol) has heightened concerns about gasoline stability. On its Web site Chevron claims "federal and California reformulated gasolines will survive storage as well or better than conventional gasoline," and I can't find any good test data to dispute that. The fact remains that ethanol is hydrophilic, meaning it tends to draw moisture out of the air, so theoretically gasohol should become contaminated more easily than pure gasoline.

The shelf life of gasohol is difficult to determine--proponents claim it's similar to that of pure gasoline but present no hard data. Anecdotally speaking, boat owners and survivalists--people who often deal with stored gasoline--report a much shorter shelf life for gasoline-ethanol blends and advise against storing them long-term.

How to keep your fuel April fresh? First, store it only in clean containers with tight caps. Whether the containers are metal or plastic doesn't matter much, although steel can eventually rust. Fiberglass containers should be avoided unless they're rated safe for alcohol-containing fuels. Keep the container nearly full to reduce exposure to air, but not completely full, so the gasoline can expand or contract as the temperature changes. That said, try to minimize those temperature swings--store gasoline in a cool place to reduce evaporation and oxidation. Consider a gas stabilizer for fuel you plan to keep awhile, but remember stabilizers are meant to prevent gasoline from going bad; they won't restore bad gas to its former health."

I have read as well that Stabil is not recommended for use in fuels containing concentrations of Ethanol enrichment higher than 10% - Stabil's website FAQ says Stabil is okay for use in blended gasolines containing up to 10% ethanol. (recent fuel survey articles I've read state that many fuels tested are often containing higher amounts of Ethanol, upwards of 15% - 20% range)

See if a local radiator & tank shop can boil-out the tank for you, then decide if you want to coat the tank. I have never coated a new tank, only really old ones that couldn't be replaced due to lack of a new replacement.

http://www.marine-paint.com/por-15-tank-sealer.htm - for sealer info

bnc
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TC/TeamEvil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you any first hand knowledge of how the POR sealer works over the long run? I have a couple of tanks that are pretty nice inside. Didn't need to be boiled out since it was more rust than old fuel, but still, they look nice now and I'd really like to coat them since the fuel around here is a mix that seems a bit toxic to coatings/plastic/lines/etc. I'm in the North East and the mix that we've been getting has been a little rough on the boat engines and lines here on the coast. I notice that it's not that great for my motorcycle either, although the Mustang seems to run fine on it.

Anyway, what's you take on the POR coating? Worth using or keep looking? I could use some help, you seem to know quite a bit, I'd trust your opinion/suggestion.

Thanks.
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LeeVW
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Have you any first hand knowledge of how the POR sealer works over the long run?"

Is that the stuff you get from Eastwood? I coated my (new) tank with the stuff back in 2002, and the coating still looks great (verified by shining a light down the filler neck). Perhaps one reason the stuff worked so well is you have to go through a whole bunch of steps prior to coating (such as etching the inside of the tank with acid).

Lee
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chopperdentist
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the same problem on my buggy.
did you modified the gas tank? I welded a new gas cap. around the new gas cap there were rust. this rust fill the filter and not enough fuell arrived to both carbs.
so I put the coat on the gas tank, change prefilter and filter. and now everything is ok!
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didget69
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TC/TeamEvil wrote:
Have you any first hand knowledge of how the POR sealer works over the long run? I have a couple of tanks that are pretty nice inside. Didn't need to be boiled out since it was more rust than old fuel, but still, they look nice now and I'd really like to coat them since the fuel around here is a mix that seems a bit toxic to coatings/plastic/lines/etc. I'm in the North East and the mix that we've been getting has been a little rough on the boat engines and lines here on the coast. I notice that it's not that great for my motorcycle either, although the Mustang seems to run fine on it.

Anyway, what's you take on the POR coating? Worth using or keep looking? I could use some help, you seem to know quite a bit, I'd trust your opinion/suggestion.

Thanks.


TC -

I don't know who your comment is directed to regarding info on tank sealers, but I have used the Eastwood system & my buddy has used the POR product; both seem to do well. The marine industry guys also have some good tank sealing products. But check to see that whatever product you opt to use is capable of handling alcohol-based fuel additives...

Preparation of the tank is key; it has to be really clean in order for the sealer to bond properly.

bnc
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a Super Beetle years ago that had the same problem. Fairly new tank, and then suddenly lots of rust. I don't know how true it is, but my VW mechanic at the time told me it was because of the ethanol and/or fuel additives they were putting in the gasoline. He told me that because I was buying the "cheap" gasoline, the gas was cut with additives that chemically worked to accelerate the rusting process within the tank.

This was before the Federal mandate to begin cutting the gas with Ethanol. Again - don't know how true it is, but thought I'd add it if it helps.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glasser. Not sure what to tell you. Things happen.
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wythac
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brent,

I see you too have a modified tank, like mine. Bummer, but what the hell, everything else on our cars is custom bulit or modified, so why stop at a fuel tank?
I'm puzzled by how your tank got so rusty in Calgary, known for some of the driest air(and best ice) on the continent....I'm going out on a limb and will suggest you got it that way from the shop and it just got worse when you got some bad fuel with water or rust in it.
I live in a marine environment. When I discovered that Sta-Bil wasn't, I started using Seafoam. I had much better for luck with that product.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have personally used this stuff on a motorcycle tank . It worked fantastic ! and still looked perfect when i sold it a few years later. After reading your post I am considering using it again before putting my tank into use (just in case) !

http://www.monsterpowersports.com/atv_eng/kreem-fuel-tank-sealer-combo-kit.html
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