lifter compatibility

[Jimmy111]

[Stripped66]

[Jimmy111]

[Jimmy111]

[Marv [UK]]

[Stripped66]

[DarthWeber]

[gonebuggy]

[modok]

Alumitanium?
This reminds me of the same attitude displayed by latest "assistant" at the shop. He would ask questions like "why don't they make engine blocks out of titanium or something cool like that?". Fact is engine blocks are made of special engine block alloys, they use materials designed to fit the purpose. Same with almost any engine part. Or so I thought.....
I previously believed that aftermarket VW cams were made of a suitable material similar to proferal, but simply of poor quality, but I was wrong.
WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE SHAFT!!!! The SHAFT!!!
NOTW-I can't believe it, but Jake and Jimmy appear to be right. The cams are made of chilled Iron. THIS EXPLAINS IT ALL. This does not make sense. Whose idea was this? From an engineering perspective it would be inadvisable to use a chilled iron cam, with chilled iron lifters, in a pushrod engine!!!!! But that is what we are doing. Why???
Whose Idea was this??

The VW engine, with it's tapered cam lobes, and crowned lifters, is no different in it's design than most American V8's and heavy duty engines, they did not use chilled cams, the cam and lifters were designed to "wear together". The engine, the lifters, and even the break-in instructions that still come on the cam card assume the cam is made of proferal, or a similar material.

Chilled iron does not "wear in", it wears ugly, it is very scuff and wear resistant, but no way does it wear pretty. Please see my previous post about the three basic types of cam/lifter materials, and how dissimilar materials are recommended. This is cam/lifter compatibility. Your lifters, unless they are made of steel, or hardenable iron, are probably made to run on a hardenable iron cam, but your cam is made of chilled iron. So I don't know if it will work, it might, but thats not how it was intended to work. We need to find out what you lifters are made of.

I can't believe it. Some genius thought it would be ok to substitute chilled iron for the original material. And no-one ever noticed the difference. And based on my examination of a multitude of old cams back at the museum that is Jay Stewart's garage, the cams have been on the same cwc blanks going back 15+ years. The older ones are softer than the newer ones, but they are all very much the same. The only examples that showed normal wear were very old cams or cams on audi/vw blanks. Some had been nitrated. scat, berg, web, dial in, and cb cams were all at one time on vw blanks. vw cam blanks are made of hardenable iron. If you don't believe me, Gene Berg says so.
But I never even suspected, they all look the same if you parkerize them. I called web and asked "what kind of iron are your vw cams made of?" I got the audio equivalent of a shrug.
This is insulting.

[modok]

Now I'm not saying everything is junk. My Web110 is nitrated, and it fits the cb lifters like a glove, somehow it works. Even with ill-advised materials, this stuff is machined so accurately that minimal wear-in is needed.

Old school materials may no longer be available, and if they are, they might wear out at a faster rate due to the changes in our oil.

I am simply outraged that no-one cares enough or has the education to engineer this stuff properly. We don't grind cams at my shop, but it did not take me long to figure this out. Or perhaps the aftermarket thinks VWs are a joke. Well my joke is faster than yours, and I drive it everyday. Maybe they have never seen a type 1 and think it is overhead cam like a modern VW? That would explain it.

If the cams continue to be made from chilled iron, steel lifters would make perfect sense, as these materials ought to work.

I think NCcams advice might be worth listening to though, thats why I posted it.
I wonder how much trouble might be saved, if we simply used the recommended materials in the first place, instead of having to resort to ceramics, tool steel, coatings ect., or god forbid- zirconium. We end up re-inventing the wheel because someone tried to save a buck.

I am sorry I had to go to such lengths to answer your question NOTW.
But I am glad you asked, thanks to Jake, Jimmy, un-named cam guy, and Jay Stewart's ridiculous collection of cams, I think you have an answer as good as any you will find. So what will you do now?

Please someone tell me I am wrong about all this, I don't like the idea that I have been running a combination of materials that makes no sense.

[modok]

I found my old Cbperformance catalog, and to my amazement, it says:
"Racing Camshaft Billets are cast from a special select grade of iron alloy referred to as "Proferal". (no they are not, not for the last 15 years)

And also

"C.B.'s Lightweight Racing Lifters are manufactured from specially cast hardenable iron." (this would explain how they are quite hard yet not brittle; possibly true.)

Did you bastards send me on a wild goose chase? Why are half these statements false?
I can't believe this stuff.

edit: Went to Scat's website.
Says about the cams -"Consistent lobe hardness all the way to the core center (Chilled Cast)"
(as Jake and Jimmy said, except the to the center part)
says about the lifters -"Manufactured from chilled quenched hardened billets" (quenched my ass)
So Scat is running chilled iron on chilled iron. well...good luck with that.

So it seems Cb's lifters are compatible with all current cam blanks.(Hardenable iron on chilled iron)
And Scats lifters would be compatible with a very hard proferal cam(such a cam does not currently exist, oops) or maybie a steel or hardfaced cam.
Does else anyone have any additional information or correct information? What kind of material and hardness are Bugpack/ACN lifters? The amount of misinformation here is astonishing.

[Jimmy111]

Proferal was used by almost all cam manufactures. It is also used for gears and other parts of this type.
It is a Austempered Ductile Iron. ASTM A897-150-110-9. Not to be confused with Chilled Iron.

[modok]

That is unless you are the vw aftermarket, haha.
they confused it no problem

[Jimmy111]

It requires a large quantity of parts to be made when you use the Proferal Process. It doesent really happen in the ACVW world. So we get chilled Iron cams. There is nothing wrong with Chilled Iron cams. But the other components need to match too. This is where the probledm is. It seems like every company has a CNC Lathe or grinder these days. It wouldnt be too difficlt to make the cams and lifters from Compatable materials. on a small scale.

[modok]

Well I don't know about quantity... The 8v crowd still has the proferal cams, or at least the cams are sold as being made of the material. Most v8 guys buy a cam and run it. I bet most vw folks have three times as many cams as they do cars, so there is quantity, if people knew what to ask for. I can't imagine a proferal cam blank could cost more than a set of tool steel lifters, or NASA grade super materials. But I don't know if there is any going back. We were given the shaft over a decade ago, so apparently we like it.

[bugninva]

FTR, the V8 crowd has been suffering from lots of cam and lifter compatibility problems for several years... a simple google search will return plenty of information on that...
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[modok]

Well I don't know what the V8 cams and lifters are made of these days, their problems may be the same as ours.

To sum up I think it would be good to list the qualities a proper high performance cam and lifter set should have, so if anyone ever finds one, it can be appreciated.

Cam- should be made of proferal, or other comparable kind of iron that has been heat treated after casting in such a way that it has the required toughness to wear while resisting fatigue(pitting). Hardness should be about 50 HRC. Several different processes and alloys exist that can achieve and surpass these properties. Proferal is just the most widely known. Cam should be ground at correct taper, and nitrided after it is ground. Parkerizing is silly.
Flame hardening is antique.

Lifters-Need to be about 5 points harder than the cam, so the cam wears to fit the lifters. Hardenable iron, steel, or chilled iron are acceptable as long as they have the correct hardness. Hardenable iron is the most common choice. Lifter needs to be ground with the correct crown, no runout allowed.

Nobody knows how well this setup would work, because it has never existed for type1 engines, at least not in the last 20 years, but the fact that Cb's lifters continue to exist proves that this would be possible.

[Type 5 Joe]

Crane Cams has been the provider for cam blanks for many, many years.... Both V8 and VW. I am almost 100% they provided all the CWC cam blanks.

I don't know what has happened since they re-organized a little while ago.

Maybe a call to them in Florida would solve some of your mysteries.

I have dealt with their tech department and had good results on a custom ground reverse rotation, Big Block Chevy Roller cam prototype.

It only cost $100.00 more to build.
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If you would like to contact me, just email through one of my ads on here...

I don't use the P.M. service on here.

[Jake Raby]

CWC cam blanks are manufactured by Engine Power.. I buy them direct from the source on some occasions. This is where the "EP" embossing comes from on the cam blanks.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

[Type 5 Joe]

Did they pick up the project after Crane filed bankruptcy?

They are no longer marked CWC and worse quality.
_________________
If you would like to contact me, just email through one of my ads on here...

I don't use the P.M. service on here.