lifter compatibility

[Jimmy111]

Its called mallable Iron.
Hardly used anymore for cranks and the like. But it is used for making pile fittings and the like.
Most cranks were made using what is called Nodular Iron. Magnesium is added during the melting process to cause the carbon to form into balls instead of flakes. No Carbon is added. The part is not reheated.

[Almost Alive]

This is a great discussion. Keep it going.
Where can I get some of these Bugpack Racing lifters?

[modok]

Well I tried to look up what cams used to be made from but my fears proved mostly true, nobody seems to know.

"Proferall" is the name of a company that used to make a lot of iron cam blanks and gears and things. They are still in business, but they got out of the Iron business over a generation ago. What kind of Iron it was is unknown, it was a "proprietary process". But whatever it was, it was cast, and it could be flame hardened.

Gene Berg stated that the German stock cams were induction hardened.
I don't know how he would know this, they may not have been.

Point is, the cams are not made of the same material as they were back in the day, so lifters from back in the day may not work on new cams.
It seems that "Hardenable iron" is lost to history, buried along with the people who made it.

[DarthWeber]

[Jake Raby]

The problems with today's cam blanks is porosity caused from being chilled too quickly.. if you saw a cam blank prior to grinding and looked at it under a microscope you'd be amazed...
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

[modok]

Through the graces of God and the power of my Puppy Linux Powered 20$ computer, I bring you a post from CNCzone.com by an unknown author who thankfully knows a lot more than I do. Here is the post in it's entirety in respect for the original author.
"NC Cams
08-11-2007, 07:46 PM
Re: grinding zirconia oxide - While I can not speak from experience with regard to grinding zirconia, I can speak with a degree of expertise with regard to grinding hard face materials (chromiun-nickle-boride aka "stellite") as well as some special high alloy tool steels that have nickel, cobalt and/or other very hard alloys.

First and foremost, it takes more than "HARDNESS" to prevent wear in cams and followers. The tribological properties of the materials often has as much to do with wear properties/resistance as pure and simple hardness.

Memo to M-man: pay attention, the following info MAY pertain to you and is IMPOSSIBLE to learn via DIY bench testing.

Example: Chilled iron is essentially "white", very high carbide iron. It is commonly used in European and Japanes OHC engines. It develops its hardness and wear resistance (carbide structure) via the material constituents and, more importantly, the casting technique. The technigue involves pouring the metal in a way so that the lobe area "chills" (hardens very very rapidly) and creates a carbide structure in the process.

The iron is very hard and quite wear resistant. HOWEVER, it is not a "tough" material. That is, it can not be highly stressed as the material is hard to the point of brittleness. Thus, you have to be VERY careful of the stresses applied and the life of the part. Any time you increase the stress signifigantly, the fatigue life drops quickly.

Hardenable gray iron: whereas the European and Japanese makers used chilled iron, the North American car companies jointly developed an alloy in the 1950s for their flat tappet cams called hardenable gray iron (trade named as Proferal).

Instead of low alloy iron poured to chill, the N/A's took and added alloying eleements such as chrome, nickle, tungsten and other agents to the iron. They then poured it into sand molds and did NOT force chill the iron. Once the iron cooled, they then flame hardened the lobes followed by oven tempering.

The result was a much deeper hardness. Moreover, the iron was basically carbide in stucture BUT it also had pockets of flaked graphite distributed thru the alloy. The hardening did what it was supposed to do but the subsequent tempering drastically raised the toughness of the part. The stress levels that this material can run and live at is FAR, FAR superiour to chilled iron. Moreover, the graphite supported in the tempered structure made the iron both wear and scuff resistant.

Proferal will run and live at stresses that would kill chilled iron. THis was one reason why the heavy valvetrains in the pushrod engines were able to live - superiour metallurgy that was NOT soley reliant on hard, brittle material to prevent wear.

The common problem of grinding/finishing ANY pre-hardened material is to cut the material without damaging (burning especially) the parent metal. A google of "grinder burns" will give incite into what's going on and why. The issue as to whether or not the zirconium would be viable for a cam depends on:

a: can you even grind/finish it? (probably the biggest hurdle)
b: will it carry/survive the loads?
c: is it financially worthwhile to even use the material?
d: is there a related material that can/will survive while rubbing against the zirconium and do so under ALL extremes of service?

I know of some ceramic materials that were used to make valves and cam followers. They were hard, very wear resistant materials that you could NOT hurt in bench wear tests. Yet they failed almost immediately in engine use.

Why?

They couldn't survive ALL of the conditions that the parts must withstand not the least of which were low speed cranking (scuffed the hell out of the parts due to lube ruptures that are "normal"), random overspeed bounce/float (overspeed at gear change or downshift) plus a lot of other "issues" that were not readily apparent to the parts inventors.

ALL and I do mean ALL of the material properties MUST be considered when selecting the alloys to use to make engine parts. The IC engine has a history of using up and spitting out materials that "should work beyond anyone's dreams". That was a lesson that my former employer learned when they tried to introduce ceramic coated piston rings to the industry almost 20 years ago.

It worked GREAT on the dyno and in the lab. Give it to the general public and/or the know it all racers and DISASTER.

The point is, and I can't/won't argue the point, that there may be some tremendous satisfaction in creating the first zirconium camshaft. The question is, however, is this exotic material REALLY needed? Or can/will some other, more reasonably priced material do a better job? Especially under the extreme, abusive conditions that can befall the lowely cam to lobe interface.

How abusive? The roller cams are operating at stress levels at or above the yield points of even the best materials. Race cams that used to last a whole season now have a tough time living 200 miles. In NASCAR, we used to use select grade, special castings to make the cams. Anymore, cams made of tool steel billets are the ONLY thing that will survive. In light of prior "issues" with exotic materials, the rules makeres have stipulated that only STEEL followers be used.

Don't even mention F1. Why? The last I heard, F1 was using valve lifts of 11 or 12 mm. We run that much lift at the cam and THEN put 1.7 to 2.5 rocker arm multiplication on top of that - worse yet, the drag racers run 12 to 13mm of cam lift and also put 1.8 to 2.0 rockers on top of that.

Jokingly, I once said that we run more valve lift than F1 runs stroke in their engines. Come to think of it, that snide remark probably isn't far from the truth.

I won't deny that there may be a desire for a zirconium cam - I just would question the need for it and how you'd go about grinding it. I know what it takes to get the custom wheels we need for our tool steel - I'd hate to see and pay what it would take to come up with wheels to finish zirconium....."END QUOTE.

Thank you unknown cam guy. That should about explain it all.

[miniman82]

[veedubcrazy]

I'm right. No, I am more right. No, your not. I am...
_________________
1967 Deluxe Sedan

[gonebuggy]

[veedubcrazy]

[Jimmy111]

How old are you guys? 12?
At the very least Modok's and my discussion is topic related.
He may not be correct but at least it is discussed and others can learn.
Perhaps DRD knows where to get the hardenable Iron. They seem to have access to the mystical Alumatanium alloy.

[veedubcrazy]

Aw, I am just messing around.
_________________
1967 Deluxe Sedan

[Unkl Ian]

[Jimmy111]

If the crown is ground into the tool steel lifter correctly there is no problem.
But lifters are expected to wear somewhat and better match the lobe taper of the cam. If the cam is softer than the lifter, then the cam will wear down, loose its lobe taper and the lifter will no longer rotate. This causes the lifter to cut into the lifter bores.

[Stripped66]

[Jimmy111]

It was called that because that was the name of the company that made it. They got their name from the electrolsis process that is used to obtain the magnesiumm from seawater.

The company that invented the process was called Chemische Fabrik Griesheim Electron.

The company still exists today.

http://www.magnesium-elektron.com/

[Marv [UK]]

[Stripped66]

[Jimmy111]

There are more Iron alloys than any other metal.
But when it comes to cars and mass production they prefer to use cheap alloys.
Chilled Iron is already very hard.
You can aneal it (grey Iron) to soften it then harden the cam lobes using nitrogen or carbon but it is rarely done in small quantities due to the added manufacturing costs.

[miniman82]