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sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10399 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:45 am Post subject: |
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This subject was brought up a little while ago in another thread, my main reason for asking about it was to determine whether there was a difference between the 4 speed and autostick versions of the starter bolt.
But what I found out from that thread, was that there was a threaded case insert from the factory for the upper driver's side bolt that tended to work loose depending on how many times that bolt had been messed with.
Look at this pic, see how big the hole for that upper drivers side bolt is compared to the others
That's because there was supposed to be a threaded insert in there, that allowed you to tighten the bolt from the transmission end without having to reach through behind the fan shroud. But if that insert falls out or works loose then that bolt will just spin when trying to tighten it from only one end, which is why mine and plenty others had to use a washer and nut on the engine side. _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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Joe Mama Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2013 Posts: 11 Location: West Coast
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Do you know what that threaded insert is called officially? My 68 has the doghouse tin missing I believe because the last time the engine was put in this tin was left off so that the upper driver bolt could be put in (my engine doesn't have the insert) I have replaced the tin and would like to get that threaded insert to save time on the install with out skipping this bolt.
Thanks |
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sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10399 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Joe Mama wrote: |
Do you know what that threaded insert is called officially? My 68 has the doghouse tin missing I believe because the last time the engine was put in this tin was left off so that the upper driver bolt could be put in (my engine doesn't have the insert) I have replaced the tin and would like to get that threaded insert to save time on the install with out skipping this bolt.
Thanks |
I don't think there was an official name for it-- it's just a threaded insert. Tons of them are missing from what I have gathered, and no true actual VW replacement available. The guy helping me with my rebuild is actually going to manufacture one for me, and I think we are going to try to Loctite it in or something. The other 3 bolts do a pretty adequate job of holding the engine in so if you had to go with a washer and nut on the engine side of that bolt it should be fine. _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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Joe Mama Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2013 Posts: 11 Location: West Coast
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks.
For now the body is off so reaching it will be easy for the install but for future install/uninstalls I was hoping to have it correct since I have the dog house cooler and the tin gets in the way more and in my case the PO left the tin off the front.
I was actually thinking of making some thing also but I am trying real hard to not read about my self here in 10 years or so being referred to what that darn PO did. |
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Joel Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006 Posts: 11099 Location: NSW Australia
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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sb001 wrote: |
no true actual VW replacement available. |
Just search for case captive nut or Part #111101135, several places sell them like VWheritage etc
http://www.vwheritage.com/vw_spares_Captive-nut-fo...183292.htm _________________ Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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johnnypan Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 7431 Location: sackamenna
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Got the older case? fit the nut to the bolt and clean the threads,oil them a tad till the nut goes on like butter...then get after it and quit whining about how hard it is..I use a small pair of vise grip for weight on the bolt side and work the nut side with the finger tips..
oh, and if you decide to nutsert the case be damn sure you drill it out correctly,many cases have been broken by hammering in a sert in a hole drilled too small. |
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Joe Mama Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2013 Posts: 11 Location: West Coast
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Joel for the link it's on order now.
Thanks Johnypan for the advise I will make sure it is looking good before pressing it in. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31272 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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I've got this saved as Engine Case Nut Insert Captive Nut
https://www.wolfgangint.com/store/product/engine-case-nut-insert-111199102/
Part #111 199 102
This nut came on all dual relief cases. This is because with a doghouse cooler it is near impossible to get a nut off or on once the engine is in. If you're putting a dual relief case on a transmission that took a single relief case, make sure you grind off the locking boss for the bolt on the clutch arm side before you put the motor in. Be careful not to crack the case when installing. Rig up a pipe that has a notch to match the notch on the flywheel side of the case. Draw the nut into the case with a bolt. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10399 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well damn Joel, thanks-
there was another thread where I asked about this and everyone "in the know" said they were not available.
EDIT: That nut insert is for a twin port case, same as the one Cusser linked to. Any difference between those and the one that originally came with the single port case?? (What I have) _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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Joel Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006 Posts: 11099 Location: NSW Australia
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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All good,
I suspect the main problem is people just don't know what they are called so have trouble finding them.
It was only twinport/dual port that had that setup up.
Single ports like yours just had a bolt with a normal nut on the engine side.
If you look closely the trans has a little V recess which locks the bolt head from turning so you can do up the nut from the engine sold without having to hold it.
Always causes havoc when people install DP engines in a SP trans and they don't get why the bolt won't do up properly.
Although that is with Manual trans, it's been way too long since I've worked on a Semi-auto so they may be different but I don't remember it being any different aside from longer bolts. _________________ Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10399 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Joel wrote: |
All good,
I suspect the main problem is people just don't know what they are called so have trouble finding them.
It was only twinport/dual port that had that setup up.
Single ports like yours just had a bolt with a normal nut on the engine side.
If you look closely the trans has a little V recess which locks the bolt head from turning so you can do up the nut from the engine sold without having to hold it.
Always causes havoc when people install DP engines in a SP trans and they don't get why the bolt won't do up properly.
Although that is with Manual trans, it's been way too long since I've worked on a Semi-auto so they may be different but I don't remember it being any different aside from longer bolts. |
Hmmm I was beginning to suspect that myself- that the single port cases didn't use the threaded insert. However that's a picture at the top of this page of my single port case, and the upper driver's side bolt hole is clearly larger than the other side. Did the bolt just wallow that hole out?? It just looks way too perfectly round to have been that. It REALLY looks like there used to be an insert in there! I wonder if I could just go ahead and use one of those inserts you linked to anyway... _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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Joel Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006 Posts: 11099 Location: NSW Australia
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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If it works out ok with your auto bell housing I would, should make life easier.
Just looking at Lees, his has a nut there too but as you can see next to his oil cooler flange it is a type 3 engine and not original.
_________________ Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10399 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Any particular reason this is a different part # than the other link to VW Heritage shows? I would assume it's the same thing. If so I will probably go ahead and order one from here, since they are in the States and will get it a lot faster.
EDIT:
Holy F#&$K!!! They want freaking $16 to ship that!! They can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. They make bug city look like goodwill. _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10399 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:51 am Post subject: |
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I think I have uncovered a bit more info regarding the upper left engine bolts. According to bug city's website, some of the "half moon head" engine bolts they sell are specified as bolts for this hole. (For example one of their ads says "Engine Bolt, Half Moon, Opposite of Starter Side, Single Port, 53-70, Used German.) This makes sense as the single port engine cases were not supposed to have the threaded insert and used a nut on the engine side, so the bolt would need to "catch" against something as that nut was being tightened down.
I still have no explanation why my case is a single port yet still has the larger hole for the threaded insert, unless it's that by the time I got this replacement engine (1990) VW Brazil had just gone to the threaded insert for everything and my insert is gone now. Anyway what I discovered yesterday was that I DID in fact have a half moon bolt on that side, but someone had twisted wire around it on the flex plate side of the bell housing to keep it in check so a nut could be tightened down.
So I think my best solution is to just use some kind of bushing in that hole to take up the slack for that bolt and then just use a nut on the engine side as was normal. _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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Joel Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006 Posts: 11099 Location: NSW Australia
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Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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sb001 wrote: |
I got this replacement engine (1990) VW Brazil had just gone to the threaded insert for everything and my insert is gone now. |
If it's a Brazilian case that changes everything.
I was thinking you still had a German single port.
Those later Brazilian cases had changed to the captive nut just for ease of install by then, so its probably just come loose at some point and been replaced by a nut. _________________ Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10399 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Joel wrote: |
If it's a Brazilian case that changes everything.
I was thinking you still had a German single port.
Those later Brazilian cases had changed to the captive nut just for ease of install by then, so its probably just come loose at some point and been replaced by a nut. |
Sure wish I still had my original 1500 H case but it was destroyed in my engine fire in 1990. Not only would my car still be completely numbers-matching original, but for whatever reason it always seemed to have much more power than this replacement 1600 has ever had (I could get it up to 80mph on the interstate with no trouble at all.)
All I know about my replacement case is this:
_________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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dopedemon69 Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2010 Posts: 11 Location: tehachapi california
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Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hello I just put another motor in my bug and the upper driver side bolt will not go all the way though. It's a stock bolt but right size. Is it ok to operate with only 3 bolts. Don't want to force it in. Can anyone offer any advice |
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Tim Donahoe Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2012 Posts: 11739 Location: Redding, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Some people go without that bolt--but I wouldn't.
Pull the engine back out far enough to thread the bolt in. Either you need to chase the thread in the hole or on the the bolt, or the bolt is the wrong size, or something else will make itself obvious.
Tim _________________ Let's do the Time Warp again!
Richard O'Brien |
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dopedemon69 Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2010 Posts: 11 Location: tehachapi california
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Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's to late I may have already destroyed the threads. Is there a special bolt for this? |
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Tim Donahoe Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2012 Posts: 11739 Location: Redding, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps you can use a helicoil or Timesert (spelling incorrect?) to repair the damage.
Then, figure out how you managed to strip the pressed-in fitting, so you don't repeat the issue. 22 ft. lbs. is all you need to tighten any of those nuts and bolts that hold the engine to the transmission.
Tim _________________ Let's do the Time Warp again!
Richard O'Brien |
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