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DogN8tor Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2009 Posts: 133 Location: SW USA
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:28 pm Post subject: Bus 2.0 Liter rebuild and Conversion to Beetle |
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Ok -
I'm a total noob when it comes to VW engine building for power. Read about Type 4 2.0 Liter engines being converted for upright cooling and used in a Bug (mine's a '71 daily driver). Was thinking of getting a new "rebuilt" 1776 longblock with a mild cam and dual carbs until I looked at the costs to get there.
I like what I'm seeing about stock air-cooled BUS/VANAGON 2.0L Type 4 motors - good design features; full oil filtering, deep sump, twin carbs, having close to 100 bhp etc. Would like to have a reliable ride that will do 75-80 mph on the freeway (not a drag car).
Other than rebuilding a bone stock 2.0 Bus/Vanagon engine for longevity what's involved in the cooling and operating switch-over?
What stock parts are needed to convert?
What's the best exhaust that will work in the Bug chassis using Type 4 heads? Can the Type 4 spin-on oil filter stay put?
Any complications to the Type 1 transmission and clutch parts? Do these components have to be changed to keep up with the Type 4's power?
Does the Bug's trans mount have to be reinforced?
Dollar for dollar which engine build / selection route provides the most reliable bang (horse-pressure) for the buck? Seems like 1776cc Type 1 engines tune out at approx. 75 h.p. while Type Four 2.0L Bus engines are getting real close to 90-100 h.p. in stock tune with new components.
thanks for responding, RJ _________________ I went down 'The Road Less Traveled' ... somehow I arrived here. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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As a bus type 4 owner who had a type 1 years ago, I can tell you that while the type 1 is less reliable in a bus, it is only because of the buses size, weight and the wind it pushes. They are a 1 ton truck essentially.
The cost to rebuild a t4 engine is way more than a t1 and parts are harder to come by. Yes it is a stronger motor but you can build 3 T1 motors for the price of a T4 motor.
If we could have found a 1971 bus instead of our 1977 we would have gone that way just because of the availability of T1 parts. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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sactojesse Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2006 Posts: 2655 Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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Although somewhat torquey (101 lb-ft), the stock 2.0l Type IV bus engine was only rated at 67 SAE net hp, largely due to emissions controls, the low duration cams, and small intake ports used for buses. The Porsche 914 2.0l was rated at 86 SAE net hp. Of course, 100+ hp is readily obtainable though. _________________ 1966 Karmann-Ghia convertible |
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vugbug68 Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2006 Posts: 2696 Location: sacramento
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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:09 am Post subject: |
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I am going to put either a 2.0 or 1700 bus engine into my 71 super beetle. I'm not converting it to upright, so it will take a little triming to get it in there, i already cut the rear apron off and will have a removeable fiberglass one.
I think you have to change flywheels but i'm not positive. also it will have dual webers and basically the type 4 extractor exhaust with a custom muffler
i would try to find a good running 72-79 bus and buy that and drop the engine, instead of rebuilding one because the whole bus will be cheaper lol _________________ 71 Super - Backroad Thrasher
66 Corvair - Weekend Cruiser
90 4 Runner - Muddin |
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norcalmike Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 4784 Location: Marina, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:24 am Post subject: |
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bus motors belong is buses. i think you will find this project to be more expensive and more trouble than its worth. you will be dissapointed. |
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vugbug68 Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2006 Posts: 2696 Location: sacramento
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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:39 am Post subject: |
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norcalvw wrote: |
bus motors belong is buses. i think you will find this project to be more expensive and more trouble than its worth. you will be dissapointed. |
have you ever driven a bug that had a type 4 or a stock 72-up bus motor?
the difference is unreal, But for someone who is new to vw engines, type 4 may be a little complex, i've built a few type 1's and i still feel lost messin with type 4's _________________ 71 Super - Backroad Thrasher
66 Corvair - Weekend Cruiser
90 4 Runner - Muddin |
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Marv [UK] Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2009 Posts: 2225 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:19 am Post subject: |
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for the book, Nextgen on here has done the conversion manual
http://www.nextgen-usa.com/ |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:09 am Post subject: |
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Marv thanks for the mentioning Jake and my manual.
Also RJ if you want to ask the every day guy like your self what he thinks after putting in a T-4 in his bug go to and get the real story, None will go back to T-1.
http://www.shoptalkforums.net/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=9de438590a0c86db6ac3a07faee6809a
Read the Posts and what Tunacan has to say.
Also go to youtube and search T-4 engine in bug and get in the cars racing Porsches and BMW’s.
As for a the comments a bus engine belongs in a bus, ha!! A T-4 in a Bug turns a Bug into a completely different car, amazing power and throughout the range.
The other comment was a rebuild will cost 3 times as much as a Type I. More like a T-4 will out last 3 Type I engines if it is in a bug.
Think about it, putting an engine that was designed to push a 2 ton bus loaded with party guys, a fridge and a motorcycle etc for over 100k -- ask youself how many type I engines will you go though. A bus is a large volume box, no one thinks about what is pushing it, only how many cubic feet of people and sofa’s it can haul and how many amps the speaker system put out.
Ask your self how long will the same engine last in a 1700 lb bug!!!!
Cost was again, ha, Type I engine build vs the T-4, no engine size was mentioned on the T-1?? The Type IV if it has to be rebuilt, will not cost as much as BUILDING a T-1 to the size and power of the T-4.
Also as you make a T-1 larger you lose engine life, especially if you are on a budget. Most guys know 1700 is the safe size of a T-1, with a T-4 you are already at 2.0.
Another logical example is the 914, it is 300 lbs more then a Bug yet everyone I have tried to buy had it’s original engine and they were all over 160,000 miles and still had power. .
To sum it up—the T-4 in a bug will push 4 big guys up mountains with out slowing down. Cruising at 80 mph all day is what I do going to work on the New Jersey Turnpike for 2 hours. If I hit the gas I can blast to over 100 in seconds. Never gets oil temp over 210f and usually right at 180f. My T- 4 is a 1700 cc block with 2.0 stock pistons and cylinders, stock 71mm 2.0 crank. Dual 36 Dells, Mallory Dizzy, Jacobs Ignition. Basic stock 2.0 with small 1700 valve heads.
With my manual if you have a running T-4 and have some T-4 and T-1 parts it will cost you nothing to convert.
If you just want to install the engine in your bug with it’s stock cooling system and it is running it is a bolt up, but you will have to chop the rear of the body to get the T-4 blower to fit. UGLY..
Did I mention my car has 100k on it and runs like new.
Don’t listen to someone that has not done it or rode in a T-4 powered bug. To many myths!!
Talk to guys that have and ask them, don’t even listen to me, all I want to do is sell my manual and make money, ha!!!
Joe Cali _________________ email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs |
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craigman Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 2397 Location: redding
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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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You CAN'T go wrong with Joe's conversion book. I have it and just finished my conversion. The fit and quality is 10 fold over my DTM. Not to mention it was a blast to build!
Just wanted to say thanks Joe!
Craig |
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josh Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2003 Posts: 1773 Location: laid back in the tall grass
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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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norcalvw wrote: |
bus motors belong is buses. i think you will find this project to be more expensive and more trouble than its worth. you will be dissapointed. |
Have you done a type 4 conversion?
It seems of the people who have, very few of them report being dissapointed. _________________
modok wrote: |
...If If stoner A takes a hit and then stoner B goes right away(not waiting two seconds), he's trying to suck on it while it's still got a vaccum, doesen't get much of a hit at all! Cause it hasn't filled back up all the way yet.
Stoner A is cylinders #2/4 B is #1/3 The plugged bowl is the throttle, the bong is the manifold |
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vugbug68 Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2006 Posts: 2696 Location: sacramento
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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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craigman wrote: |
You CAN'T go wrong with Joe's conversion book. I have it and just finished my conversion. The fit and quality is 10 fold over my DTM. Not to mention it was a blast to build!
Just wanted to say thanks Joe!
Craig |
dont tell that to jake _________________ 71 Super - Backroad Thrasher
66 Corvair - Weekend Cruiser
90 4 Runner - Muddin |
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DogN8tor Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2009 Posts: 133 Location: SW USA
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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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I was originally thinking of getting a Type-1 new 1776cc longblock out of Cali, adding dual Weber ICTs and a mild cam. Although I like good performance thrashing a built Type 1 motor and then having it fail in only 40K (in fierce desert heat) or less seems downright wasteful.
After reading the above and considering the longevity issue between a built-up Type 1 engine and a stock Type 4 I'm leaning towards the JC 2.0 Bus to Beetle Conversion using THE MANUAL. Right now spending $750+ just for a DTM blower setup seems just a wee tad high $$$.
A 100 bhp Porsche 914 may be in the cards ... down the road.
Good ideas and insights. _________________ I went down 'The Road Less Traveled' ... somehow I arrived here. |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Dogn8tor, My advise to get anywhere from 100 to 125 hp is simply split the case and put in a cam. The T-4 stock Fuel Injected cam suck and a good cam with a set of carbs and an nice dizzy, and good exhaust will do the trick. Bottom end on T-4's are bullet proof and rarely need to work. TO keep it inexpensive yet wind up with a 2.0 power basic stock engine, like I said you are simply doing a freshin up on the T-4.
A big problem I have found with T-4's is now that I know what I can do to a T-4 to really have a high powered machine, I keep looking for a reason to pull the engine. The engine now has 100k and it runs so damn good I see no reason to rip it out. It just keeps going.
So do it right and you won't look back. _________________ email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs |
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gr8cobbler Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 916 Location: Midlife Crisis, Midwest
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Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: |
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This is very appealing, seems more straight forward than a Subaru conversion. Aside for the nominal cost of the manual what is the estimated cost of conversion to and upright system? _________________ Gary
Being a cheap old fart is just a front for my actual lack of money. |
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grimace007 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2006 Posts: 2673 Location: swampville, florida
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Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: |
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im so tired of hearing type IV is so much more expensive. thats such a load of crap.
the part that is more expensive is the heads. and then to boot you have to rebuild brand new heads straight away out of the box because of the inferior hardware used by AMC
aside from the heads parts arent that much more than t1 and many are evn quite comparable
im only down to my bus now, its my first one and i got it for the t4. and i can say after driving a t4 engine, every other daily driven vw i ever end up owning will probably have a t4 motor in it _________________ Brian
68 sedan
Dallas Air Coolers
perrib wrote: |
Hey It is The Samba where well thought out rational answers can take a while and getting side tracked is normal. I was just lucky this time. |
cr@M wrote: |
No one has any personal responsibility these days. This country is sue happy. Intelligence is no longer a requirement, just an accessory. |
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busman78 Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2004 Posts: 4518 Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: |
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That is not quite true about the costs. Yes the heads are a real wallet sucker. The balance of the T4 engine parts will set you back a few more dollars than the T1 counterpart. It all boils down to demand, there are more and have always been more T1 engines in the world. Quality to quality, these comparisons are based on non chinese parts, prices were just taken from various vendor web sites, some prices rounded off.
Gasket sets for T1-$15, for T4 - $60
Main Brgs for T1 - $40, for T4 - $75+
Rod Brgs for T1 - $20, for T4 - $40
Cam Brgs - yea they cost about the same
Mahle P&L for T1 - $160+, for T4 - $300+
CB cam for T1 - $80, for T4 - $100
Web Cam T1 - $76.50, for T4 - $139.50
Joe Cali conversion is one excellent solution, if you are not a good welder, which I am a terrible one, then a Raby DTM is an excellent alternative. I have a DTM, I also have Joe's manual. |
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grimace007 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2006 Posts: 2673 Location: swampville, florida
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Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:25 am Post subject: |
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gasket sets 45 bucks
main bearings are 50ish
rod bearings 20ish
these prices are from pelican parts one of the more expensive vendors i use.
sounds like your getting ripped off or your dont shop around
eitherway i stand behind my statement that in general the parts are only a few bucks more and the difference isnt that big of a deal unless your a tightwad who bought your vw cos you think they are cheap.
the heads are where the money is plain and simple. yeah do do them right even stock takes about 800bucks to rebuild or 12-1400 brand new
they last SOOOO much longer the diffference in initial cost has more than pays for itself once you roll 100k
thats just my .02 though _________________ Brian
68 sedan
Dallas Air Coolers
perrib wrote: |
Hey It is The Samba where well thought out rational answers can take a while and getting side tracked is normal. I was just lucky this time. |
cr@M wrote: |
No one has any personal responsibility these days. This country is sue happy. Intelligence is no longer a requirement, just an accessory. |
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busman78 Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2004 Posts: 4518 Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:24 am Post subject: |
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No, I pulled the bearing, piston and gasket set prices from a well known vendor on this site as a quick comparison. Even with your squeeky wallet Pelican pricing you are still higher than a T1 comparable price and that is what freaks T1 people out. It was twenty years ago when I encountered the need to assemble my first T4 engine, the decade plus prior to that my VW life was only T1, the cost of the T4 parts was a real eye opener considering I had shelves full of T1 parts, today I have no T1 parts, any vehicle I have or will have that originally came with a T1 based engine will be converted to a T4. |
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didget69 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004 Posts: 4925 Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Type 4's are better than Type 1's... _________________ I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
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