1972 bus project IDEAS WELCOME!

[Stuartzickefoose]

HISTORY:
1972 transpoter
1700cc engine
dual carbs
im the second owner
im 17 and understnad cars fairly well.
bone stock and never modifyed. religously maintained till 85, parked because of a vaccum leak. no detail on that.

all there, minus a few screws.
nothing is really broken other than the engine not running right.


i have it able to fire, but runs really rough. timed correctly, not firing on all the cylenders, one of which is #1 be i cant get the strobe timer to work with it, but it works on the others. also, the bus only runs good around 9 or 10 degrees instead of five where it should be. any ideas?
static timed via john muir, and bug me videos.

New items:
wires, points, cap, rotor, and cleaned plugs (from 85)
fuel lines, fuel, smaller vaccum tubes, and the balencer pipes on the duel carbs
tested items:
coil
Old items
bigger vaccum hoses, condensor

i noticed that the choke wasnt engagin on the carbs at all. im fairly certain it is the choke. thats the butterfly flap on the top of the carbs right?
it wasnt closing when its cold.




basically, it hasnt run right since 85, i bought it for a project for 300, towed it home a mile and replaced muffler, gas, fuel lines, balencer tube ruber parts, smaller vaccum hoses, and cleaned the carbs by running some carb cleaner through them, when i had it running a little better than it is now.


HELP?


Used the samba for a while, but not alot. only the third post or so. thanks in advance


anybody in the edmonds washington area that may want to come over and help me out with this, PM me so i can get ya the address, i would love some help from a fellow VW enthusienst.
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Stuart Zickefoose

2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual

206-841-7324
[email protected]

[Bleyseng]

Not firing on all cylinders?

Check the firing order and the sparkplug wires to make sure they are run correctly to the plugs.
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70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles

[Emeritusx]

I fought my 1600 for a day before I got mad and rechecked even the stupid things... found out cylinder wire 2&3 were swapped.

The symptoms sound the same occasional cough, wouldnt run until I got it way out of time, then it ran rough as hell...

just a thought...
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82 Westy ☢, 66 Splitty ☮, 73 Type 181 ✠

[airic]

my thoughts
need to check valve adjustment, and check compression

[Wildthings]

If you are static timing the engine it needs to be at about 7-8° BTDC no matter what the timing specs are. If you static time it at 5° ATDC you will be 12-13° retarded.

If you are not getting spark on only one cylinder it will likely be either the plug, the spark plug wire or the dizzy cap, in that order.

The chokes may have been giving problem opening so the PO had them set so they would never close.

[Randy in Maine]

When it comes time to dinking with the carbs on this thing, this post by Amskeptic will go a long way....

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=173175&highlight=rustybus

[SGKent]

[Stuartzickefoose]

I checked the wires, made sure four times, they are one correct, one tight, and they are brand new.

I have been told a total of 8 times, all by different people to do a compression test. i guess i should stop putting it off.

as for vavles, iv been told twice now, and that was on my list after getting new plugs, and right before the compression test
does it retard because of the vaccum retard thing? i tried timing it three ways now. once, at 5 BTDC, with engine running and vaccum tubes on. them at as high as i could get the ening, tubes off, ended up idling at about 8 ATDC, tubes on or off. which made me onder if my vaccum problem is somewhere near that....

Wildthings
"If you are static timing the engine it needs to be at about 7-8° BTDC no matter what the timing specs are. If you static time it at 5° ATDC you will be 12-13° retarded. "


them i static timed it yesterday, and it backfires horriblely...im going to try to time it at 8 on both sides, and see which one works better. i didnt quite understand the whole, 5ATDC and 8 BTDC, as my timing is 5 BTDC, i cant figure out if you are using the 5 ATDC as an example, or actual numbers that i should use.

i think the chokes are still stock, but not working. i noticed that the left one gets stuck open every once in a while, and if tapped, it frees up, i oiled it, but it feels like its hitting a ledge or something. i havent checked for sure, but i think that they are working and opening properly. ill double check. the dizzy cap and wires are new, the plugs are from 1985 ish. gonna replace those.

i have actually seen the rusty bus forum, it worked great to help me fix a few of the vaccum tubes, but i think as far as setting the carbs, they were maintaid extremely well, up till 85, then never touched. i was going to set them after it is firing correctly. most likely, ill Remove and clean them.



I have assumed the points were out of timing before, and found out that they somehow got set at about three times the right width that they needed. how did that happen? well, i adjusted them to as close to .016 as i could and it actually ran after that. i'v checked it twice since then. its pretty close. if the compression test, the valves, the plugs and the condensor all get checked/
fixed, and it still runs bas, the next thing is electronic points. for both my bus and my bug.

SGkent:

"*a bad lobe or the points out of adjustment ~lobe is good i think, and the points are pretty damn close.
*a bad wire open or grounding out ~new wires, correctly installed
*plug wire not seated at either end ~ check multiple times on all wires
*too wide a gap on that plug ~checked all gaps and cleaned, they are gapped fine
*bad plug ~possible, gonna get new plugs
*carbon track in cap, cracked cap or bad post inside cap for that cyl ~new cap, its still clean
*bad rotor inside cap ~ new rotor, worked great in my bug, works fine
*far fetched and extremely unlikely but that is only cyl with compression and weak coil ~not possible, i have checked this coil, used two diffent spare, just decided to stick with original"


any bus fans in the edmonds lynnwood, seattle, everett area, please let me know, if i could get a second set of eyes/ears/hand (to help turn the key ) that would be great.


Thanks for all the advice, keep it coming, ill put up the compression test details soon, and ill let you all know when i check the valves and replace plugs.

Stuart
_________________
Stuart Zickefoose

2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual

206-841-7324
[email protected]

[Randy in Maine]

Put your dwell meter on that green points wire and tell us just how close you are to 47º +/-3º.

What is the number on the distributor that you have in there? IT is the ditributor that determines the correct timing.

No VW has ever been timed to 5º BTDC.

[Emeritusx]

I know this sounds really stupid, but I did it once.. I replaced the dist in the thing from an .009 to a dvda... Well I know the firing order as does everyone. But not really thinking (dont do it everyday and it had been a long time) about it I knew 1 was right front but again not thinking I assumed #2 to be the right rear, instead of it being #3 (cant really see the stamping)... Would not run, messed with timing got it to start, ran like crap - I double, triple, quad etc checked everything... Firing order was correct (but the way I counted the cylinders swaps 2 and 3) so it was off..

Then I saw the #3 stamp on the right rear... Durrrrr after messing with it for a day or two...

swapped the wires, static timed, start switch purrrrrr...
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82 Westy ☢, 66 Splitty ☮, 73 Type 181 ✠

[SGKent]

here is what I see. Maybe am misunderstanding. If the strobe light flashes on 3 of the 4 cylinders but not #1, something is keeping the voltage down on that cylinder. The way it works is that the spark jumps less distance the higher the compression, and the electrons don't care where it is in the cycle - they either flow or not flow. If the strobe isn't firing on that one wire then something is different on that cylinder electrically. If the points are set to .016 when the rubbing block is on the lobe, and all the lobes open the points, then the coil is putting out voltage. That voltage is finding its way to the cap as evidenced by the other cyl firing. Somewhere between the rotor and the plug tip that voltage is being lost. If the plug has carbon across it, that can keep the voltage down.

I am not a fan for swapping plugs because everytime in and out risks cross threading but new plugs would be my choice here. If he has a multimeter he could pull the wire off the cap and measure to see if there is resistance to ground. If there is then the plug is shorted. Rare unless carbon is across it.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Stuartzickefoose]

Okay, just did a compression test, and found two important things.

#1 the results were:
1 was a oily, actually, all of them were. i cleaned them recently, so bad rings? anyway, 1 was at around 130,2 was about 150, 3 was around 140, and 4 was around 140. i say around because i would rotate the engine, then run back and look, and it leaked fast. i dont have a helper yet. (again, anyone in edmonds?)
all the plugs except 4 were gapped okay. .024-.025 is good right?


#2.
i realized i am an idiot.
i was taking out the plug on #3 and bumped a tube. i realized instantly it has no pushing resistance, meaning, it wasent connected to anything. it was off the inside on the dizzy, connected to the left carb. i connected it, havent had a chance to retime, and check everything out. im leaving on a trip, so when i get back i will (two days)

also, i looked at the right (passenger) carb, and i cant remember, what is the cylender on the right side of it called? it has a black wire to it. i noticed it was a bit loose and so i took it out, noticed it was also very dirty, cleaned it (got cleaner in my eye ) and cleaned the hole. was going to repeat this on the other side, but its was time to go.

thanks again, and when i get a longer chance, i will reply to what you guys said.

i think i am a little confused on the B and the A on the TDC i need to double check what i am saying.


What would be the most basic way of timing it to get it start up? very simple, bc now it wont start and run as well. static, stob e with tubes or without, other? i cant get it to run well, so im thinking static.

and i beleive it is the stock dizzy, dual vaccum, as its all origonal stuff on it, but ill get the number off it later.



Thanks

Stuart

PS
do i need the huge black oil bath in the middle? i took it out when i did the compression test, so i would have more space, can i just get paper element filters and use those instead?
_________________
Stuart Zickefoose

2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual

206-841-7324
[email protected]

[Stuartzickefoose]

oh, and i will try the multimeter trick, hadnt thot of that.

Thanks
Stuart
_________________
Stuart Zickefoose

2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual

206-841-7324
[email protected]

[Wildthings]

The spec timing for a '73 bus is going to be either 10° or 5° ATDC (after top dead center) at base idle all hoses in place and the cans holding vacuum, while some other buses use 7.5° BTDC (before top dead center) at base idle, hose off and plugged.

To set either statically you want 7.5° BTDC (and the hoses shouldn't matter).

[Stuartzickefoose]

OKay, ill try the static timing, at 7.5 BTDC, and see how that works.


Thanks again for helping me finally get my bus back on the road.

Stuart
_________________
Stuart Zickefoose

2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual

206-841-7324
[email protected]

[Randy in Maine]

Did you ever put the dwell meter on the green points wire?

[Stuartzickefoose]

I gotta get one that works. i think the one i have ($2 garage sale find) doesnt work very well. and its hard to read

Anybody got one i could borrow?
if not i may be able to rent one from autozone. they got a great deal, you basically buy the tool, then when your done you return it. basically a free rental. no joke, they call it renting, its great.


Ill let you know as soon as i get the chance to do it.


Stuart
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Stuart Zickefoose

2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual

206-841-7324
[email protected]

[rustbus]

Hey Dude,

I have a 72 as well.

You mentioned removing the oil bath and switching to a paper element.

I just (this past summer) removed the paper filter and swapped everything back to orignal 72 with the oil bath.

you would need to:

- get the later taller manifolds
- get the later balance tube to suit those manifolds
- get the later linkage between the carbs
- get the paper element filter supports (taller as well)
- get the paper filter housing itself
- need taller spring clamps to hold the filter arms to the carbs
- mess around with the accelerator cable length and install/approach location
- i'm not sure, but the intake air preheat might not line up any more - i'd bet it wouldn't.

this is assuming that you are currently running the complete 1972 setup. If you have the oil bath filter fitted, I would assume you have all the original 1972 parts listed above as well.

Long story shot, if it were me, I'd leave it as is as swapping is a pain, but yet, the later setup offers a bit more space. the oil bath is a very tight and well engineered fit - very little room left for your hands in and around between the carbs and case and filter etc.
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May of '72 Deluxe. 2.0L L-Jet CS & 091 trans conversion
my Bus thread

[Stuartzickefoose]

why cant i just put the paper element stands and filters ontop of the carbs and leave the rest alone? wouldnt that work?
im wondering if the person who put them on your bus just switched them out that way, and because of the way the oil baths are made, you may have had to switch it all back. if its stock shortness, why cant i leave it like that? is there like a couple of parts that would rub or something?


Thanks

Stuart
_________________
Stuart Zickefoose

2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual

206-841-7324
[email protected]

[Stuartzickefoose]

finally back home and i plan to static time the bus tomorrow and possibly go buy some new plugs for it. come to think of it, i may as well get a new coil and condensor too. take them out of the problem equation.


so i came across the greatest ad ever today for me. absolutle made my week. i got a free 3 person middle seat in usable condition! sure its dirty as hell, and has a bunch of tears in it, but i figure a 5 min trip to the car wash to use the hot pressure washer and soap + super clean degreaser, and it will be clean, then a couple hours drying after i glue the big rips back together, should be in much better shape. ill try and post pics.


Hopefully the timing works tomorrow!

Stuart
_________________
Stuart Zickefoose

2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual

206-841-7324
[email protected]