New Hightop Option

[elizer]

I see an option to watch this thread. How do I block it? I can't deal with this temptation.

[dobryan]

[J Charlton]

Posted this on " High top foundation" about a couple of weeks ago in response to an ongoing discussion pertaining to opening up a larger section of the roof for a hightop installation. Thought I'd copy and repost it here as it is germane to high top installs .

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: High top foundation

We completed a 2600km trip from Ontario to St John's Newfoundland about a week ago. I drove my hightopped ex tintop. We slept in the hightopped van as a family of 3, wife, son (21) and myself. I slept "upstairs" - I'm a little under 6' and about 200 lbs . We had a 2 1/2" piece of memory foam from an old mattress pad in the upper berth. I found it to be very comfortable sleeping head forward with my head right by the windows. I would have had more headroom space with an inflatable like the Klymit double v air mattress but i did not find it to be uncomfortable at all - I slept great. I slept "downstairs" one night as well - slept great there too. The "downstairs" sleeping area has the mattress part over the engine bay raised 3" to accommodate an elevated engine lid for a diesel engine - again, sleeping head to the front, no issue whatsoever getting a good night's sleep
My other hightopped van is an ex westy pop top. I've slept upstairs and downstairs in it as well. I feel no difference sleeping upstairs in either, I do feel a difference sleeping downstairs in the ex pop top - not sure why but I am always wary of the "ceiling" there
From my perspective its not worth the time and effort to gain a few inches of headroom upstairs by doing a more extensive cut of the roof. Space is space and the volume of the van with hightop will be a constant - whether you have more upstairs or downstairs depends only on how you divide the space.
Most folks who add a hightop find that they use the upper areas almost exclusively to stow clothing, bedding, camping equipment etc etc and therefore leaving the main cabin clutter free - on the other hand, kids from the time they can climb safely inevitably claim the upper space as their own - no matter what and happily hang out there and sleep up there
One other advantage wrt hightopping a tintop relative to a poptop that should not be overlooked is that the width of the bed (lower) in the tintop is significantly wider than is the lower bed in a poptop - almost 12" - for many people that is significant.
I've been asked many times wrt the issue of a more extensive roof cut. My answer is always " i do not recommend it unless you are prepared to weld in a lateral brace at least as substantial as the one in a westy" The vw engineers who spec'd out that lateral brace had their reasons. I respect those reasons and personally want no part in encouraging anyone to put a less structurally sound vehicle on the road.
The standard install that we do to install a hightop on a tintop removes NO structural member.
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NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 1 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 4 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2024

[J Charlton]

Its been a busy Month of September - I began to teach my son to drive in my '90 diesel automatic hightop - probably the perfect vehicle to teach a cautious beginning driver to learn in. As we were in Newfoundland, in the St John's area, there were plenty of big wide open vacant parking lots to practice all of the basics in. When he and I drove my RAM pickup back to Ontario, I knew that I had to fly back and drive the van back to Ontario so that he could continue his driving here. I flew out to St John's on the 18th and had to drive to Port aux Basques (900km because the "long ferry" was again cancelled) . I was there 2 days before Hurricane Fiona slammed into Port aux Basques and destroyed a good part of the town. Fiona chased me across Nova Scotia and New Brunswick for 3 days - major major nasty weather - I was snug and happy in my hightop - stealthing in Walmart parking lots all the way back to Ontario. The van ran like a champ and averaged 8.2 L/100km all the way (about 29mpg) at highway speeds averaging 95-110km/h

Our NAHT installer in Salt Lake City - Jeff Mathews - has been in contact with me wrt racking for a client of his who wanted to add racking to his hightop - I shared with him my strong opinions wrt mounting any type of racking directly on a hightop - DON'T DO IT !!! - and I'm really happy that he and a local fabricator came up with the racking in the pictures below. The racking transfers ALL of the weight on the racking down to the van gutters - IMHO - the only way it should be done - and looks really good. The racking pictured looks as if its set up for skiis or snowboards or surfboards or SUP's but could easily be reconfigured to accommodate kayaks or whatever.

I really value the contributions of our installers as they respond to client wishes to add to the convenience and practicality of their vans. The racking will be made available for others through vwuplifters in SLC
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NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 1 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 4 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2024

[J Charlton]

The fabricator of our NAHT tops, Terry, has recently begun to do installs of the NAHT tops as well.
His latest install is on an '88 Syncro, originally from Calgary, now from Toronto.
I think that this van was associated somehow with the '88 winter Olympics held in Calgary - I seem to recall an image of a syncro or syncros with the paint job that is still visible, but basically faded out , ferrying people across an ice field or glacier for some event.
The owner wanted the top painted in a colour complementary to that which he is going to have the entire van painted to in the near future and since Terry is an excellent painter, it got done.

Painting, and installing a painted top, changes the "normal" work sequence of prepping and installing an NAHT top so Terry designed and made racks and jigs appropriate for the job.
The syncro has many upgrades - engine, suspension, bumpers etc etc etc and will be as fine a cross country travelling machine as it is a back woods bushwhacker with the hightop addition.

video link re the hightop interior finishing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOD6yXEoiZw

Terry has a couple more install "time windows" available in the upcoming months. Contact me if you are interested.
JC
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NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 1 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 4 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2024

[J Charlton]

Its been quite a while since I've posted . Our oft delayed production run of 2022 went to installers in Bend Or., Kennewick and Fife Wa. mid summer/ early fall and there are NAHT tops available from that distribution in each location, in limited numbers. We are monitoring supply chain issues of price, availability and reliability on an ongoing basis and "reading the economic tea leaves" before deciding on the timing of our next production run to re-supply our installer/distributors in Mass, Virginia. Florida, Colorado and Salt Lake City.

To be clear - the published cost of an NAHT top is $4500 USD which includes a very high quality side window set. Although the NAHT tops are made entirely in Canada, virtually all of the materials that we use in the production of the tops come through the US and the cost of them to us is based on the US dollar. Our fabricator, Terry, is making almost exactly the same amount per top as he has for the last 5 years, we are doing everything that we can to keep the costs down without compromising quality.

Part of that commitment to quality includes continuing to build the tops by hand using the "hand laid" process a process that produces a stronger, lighter and more durable product than does the "chopper gunning" process. "Hand laid" relative to "chopper gunned" is very much like comparing a given thickness of plywood to a similar thickness of particle board in terms of strength and weight. Handlaying fibreglass is also much more labour intensive and almost more like an art form - there are very few fibreglass fabricators "out there" left - Terry is one of them. Terry has also begun to install NAHT tops in the last year - his expertise in the automobile restoration (avocation) and marine repair/restoration (vocation) fields has led to him making several adaptations to the install process. A couple of folks from as far as the US midwest have driven their van to Terry, flown home, flown back 2-3 weeks later picked up their van and continued on with an extended tour/drive/adventure in Canada - I recommend Newfoundland as a trip of a lifetime - but allow for at least 2 weeks in Newfoundland by itself.

The NAHT top is specifically made to take advantage of the vanagon roof profile right above the gutter on each side of the van. The NAHT top can be successfully and securely fastened to the "contact patch" along each side of the van with modern 2 part epoxy resin adhesives widely used in the automotive trade (and aircraft manufacture) without the use of "through fasteners" Some people have used through fasteners in addition to the adhesives (very very few) but with close to 200 NAHT tops on the road on T3's (about 60/40 installer / DIY installs) the efficacy of adhesives alone is well established without the necessity of making holes in the fibreglass.

I have always encouraged folks who want racking for their NAHT to consider only racking that transfers all weight down to the gutters of the van rather than using through fasteners to secure racking to the top itself

This racking was developed by our SLC installer, Jeff Mathews - strong, light and transfers all of the weight down onto the gutters. Another advantage of racking like this is that awnings can be attached to it and therefore elevated at attachment several inches above the van gutters - nice for ease of entry and exit from the van

Another couple of examples of exoskelatal racking - this one with the awning attached as mentioned,

Several of our installers have developed solar panel installations, rigid panels on racking as mentioned above, but mostly using flexible panels attached to the top with modern super strong double sided tape

A couple of thoughts about windows in the rear of a hightop - wrt to the NAHT top and window combination - there is no necessity for a rear window for either ventilation of light - the positioning and size of the NAHT windows provides more than ample light and ventilation. There have been several NAHT tops installed with rear opening windows or hatches - more commonly hatches to accommodate the sliding in of large objects i.e. usually surf boards. The downside to rear windows or hatches is that to be secure, they have to be locked and unlocked from the inside - and its a very long reach back to the window or hatch to do so.

I welcome the availability of other hightops to the vanagon community. The addition of a hightop to a van or the conversion of a poptop to hightop has, in quite a few cases, allowed T3 owners to extend their ownership and use of their beloved T3 after finding that without a hightop the van was simply "too small"

JC
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NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 1 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 4 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2024

[kaalualu]

Great post John!
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'84 Transporter 16" CLK's/LED's/ AT's/Mansi injectors
'86 Wolfey Weekender Westfalia AT's/otherwise stock
Sold-'82 TinTop Diesel

[jimf909]

Agreed that it's a great post. I appreciate John's transparency on costs, construction, etc.

It's pretty neat that there are multiple high-top options to choose from.

I'm a big fan of the NAHT for its massive internal space for storage and standing (and the fact that it was nearly the only option in 2016). This new top that's available has a different look and interior space that appeals to some. Choices are good.
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- Jim

[dobryan]

The NAHT is still the only one that I can stand up in. I am 6'4".
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[DuncanS]

I realize it would cost more, but if a hat section were molded in vertically where the gutter mounts for where an extended rack would go, this would allow for loads to be attached directly to the top eliminating the non "legs" of the rack and help with racking of the rack itself.

Duncan

[J Charlton]

[DuncanS]

#2 Shipping--Super important. Got it. Forgot about that when I made the suggestion. It would also make a bump on the inside many might not like. Given how high the top is to begin with, maybe not encouraging additional loads up there is the best thing anyway.

Duncan

[tim_ha]

Does anyone out there know if Evercoat Maxim 815 can be used to adhere a hightop to the van? It appears that I goofed up when I put in my order and ended up with 3 tubes of 815 rather than the 813 that I see most folks referencing as what adhesive they used. I have reached out to the manufacturer but in the mean time was trying to figure out exactly what the differences are.

The technical pdf for the 813 specifically calls out excellent adhesion to fiberglass where the 815 mentions excellent adhesion to SMC/FRP in the Features and Benefits section.

manufacturer website links:
813 - https://www.evercoat.com/product/maxim-medium-set-adhesive/
815 - https://www.evercoat.com/product/maxim-panel-bonding-adhesive/

Thanks!
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1986 Syncro Sunroof EJ22
www.subagonsouth.com

[DuncanS]

The tech sheet says it bonds to steel and fiberglass. Is anything more needed to know? They don't even mention fiberglass in the 813 specs.

Duncan

[tim_ha]

[J Charlton]

I'm pretty sure that the numbers 813, 815 have changed over the years and depending on whether or not you ordered from an on line source or an auto body supplier what was 813 may now be 815 if it was old stock. As far as I'm concerned, the setting time is really important - the medium set gives you enough time - usually about 30 minutes - check the setting times -
JC
_________________
NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 1 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 4 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2024

[tjet]

I'm guessing the 815 just sets slower than the 813 (as J Charlton noted).

The longer working time is sometimes needed when working with something large. It gives you extra time to position the part being bonded, and to clamp everything evenly (so it squeezes out uniformly) before it begins to heat up and solidify.

I would make a sample bond (with similar materials) with any left over epoxy so you can inspect it when it's fully cured (to make sure it was mixed properly).

Hopefully, the customer service people will answer their phone

Also, the cure time is based at 72 deg F & 75% humidity. It will take longer if it's cold and dry there.

[DuncanS]

15 has a clamp time of 3 ½ hours opposed to 13 having only 1 ½. Longer is better for a complicated clamp up and clean up time. But both say the working time is 30 to 45 minutes, so there is no difference there. The sooner you get a bead clamped to get the volume in a given area thinner, the longer the working time is. I don't know what your clamping schedule will look like. Pop rivets? What ever it is, clamp far apart to begin with and then add clamps in intermediate positions. The spacing depends on the stiffness of the top. Stiff, you can go reasonably far apart. Floppy, close together.

Temperature is a very big factor in working and clean up time. Do NOT do it in direct sun. You live in coldish weather and so do it as soon as possible early in the morning. Epoxy will eventually cure no matter how cold it is when you do the work.

You have the better of the two choices.

Judging from the literature and the cartridge pictures, the resin and hardener are in different tubes. Since the mixing ratio is 1:1, make sure the beads are of the same cross sectional area. Apparently the mixing occurs during the clamping process. If all this is true, then if you hold the seams apart away from where you first start clamping, then your working time will start when the two beads of different chemicals are mated.

All this said, however, I think 3M 5200 is a far better choice. It will be a structural bond which neither 13 nor 15 claim. In fact, they say it is a non structural bond. 5200 is a one part which makes a slightly flexible absolutely permanent bond which is impossible to break apart. Working and cleanup time are an entire day and temperature isn't important at all above 50º. And of course, there is no worry about the quality of a mix. Clean up is with gasoline which won't hurt your paint.

Remember to tape off areas which you don't want the 815 to get on. Epoxy requires acetone to clean it which will trash any paint it gets on. Yes, you can use white vinegar, but it will take 5 times longer as the epoxy is not soluble in vinegar. It just thins it so there is a great deal of wiping with fresh paper towels and then throwing them away so you don't smear epoxy all over the place.

Duncan

[tim_ha]

JC,
Thanks for the timely feedback and all of the great resources for getting through this process!

tjet and DuncanS,
Thanks for your feedback too!

I am still working on getting details from Evercoat regarding the specific differences but have been reassured by the feedback here that I am OK to proceed with the Maxim 815. I have scheduled time in a friends heated shop (he keeps it around 60 degrees) and enlisted help to perform final prep and bonding of the hightop tomorrow. The van will cure inside for at least 36 hours. Then I get to work on all the interior finishing details and will hopefully get it all set in time for camping season!
_________________
1986 Syncro Sunroof EJ22
www.subagonsouth.com

[dobryan]