New Hightop Option

[J Charlton]

When I'm walking a DIY guy through an install, I always advise them to to literally rehearse the entire process of getting the top in place and clamped down at least twice in its entirety before the application of the adhesive and it's done "for real" Its pretty amazing how much smoother the actual real process goes. For sure, if the temps are higher you have even less time.
Rehearse / practice how you're going to lower the top one side at a time so as not to scrape the adhesive off the roof with the edge of the top as it lowers - the tops are not heavy but they are awkward to handle so its a good time to recruit some friends and don't get into the thank you beers until the rehearsals and final installation is complete
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NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 1 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 4 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2024

[dobryan]

[J Charlton]

Quick hint - after you've done your second rehearsal and you have the top positioned perfectly, take a piece of masking tape and run it vertically down the fibreglass onto the van body. Cut the tape at the gutter. Do this on each side. Now when its "for real" time lining the tape up on each side will help position the top quickly.
_________________
NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 1 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 4 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2024

[DuncanS]

All of the comments I see about how quickly this stuff "goes off" scares the hell out of me.

I highly recommend you throw the stuff you have away and go with 5200 which will give you an entire day to get it right and clean up. AND you will have a structural bond. This is the material which builders of large sailing yachts use to bond the deck to the hull. They used to not only use 5200, but also bolt the connection every 4". Now realizing how good 5200 is they only bolt every foot or even 18" which is just to hold the deck in position while the 5200 cures. The way it works is it takes moisture out of the air and use that to complete the chemical cure.

Please look into this. If you get the top on wrong and have to redo it to get it in the correct position, it will have to be ground off and the consequent repair and cost will amount to a week of work and result in a huge expense and most likely require a pro to do it.

I've been building fiberglass boats for 50 years and have a great deal of experience with epoxy in different forms and various bonding agents. No boat builder I know uses the product you are contemplating as there isn't enough time to get everything set up and clamped in a really good process unless you have a good experienced crew of at least three guys and 5 would be better.

I'm not saying you won't be able to do it, but remember, you don't get a second chance. It has to come out right the first time.

Do you have a mechanical clamping system worked out and have you tested it on a dry run? As J. Chariton said, this is incredibly important. Do you have 3 or four guys who can run through the process and help you?

Duncan

[dobryan]

I do love the 5200. I use that sh!t on everything. You have good points.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[tim_ha]

DuncanS, you bring up some very good points regarding the advantages of using 3M 5200. I would be interested in hearing what J Charlton has to say regarding why he recommends using the Evercoat product. I’m tempted to move forward with what I have as I don’t think that I can source the 3M in the town I live in tomorrow and I’ve already got the helpers and shop and free time lined up for tomorrow. I’ll sleep on it and make the call in the morning.
_________________
1986 Syncro Sunroof EJ22
www.subagonsouth.com

[DuncanS]

I know you will be busy and trying to beat the set time, but have someone take pictures and give us a full report for others in the future.

5200 is available over the counter and most marine supply stores and or on line. Home Depot has it, but you'd have to drive over to Fort Collins, an hour away.

Good luck and we all hope it goes well. Remember, the colder the better for extending the set time.

Duncan

[J Charlton]

If you're organized and have some good helpers you should be OK using the Evercoat you have. Just go through the entire process with everybody co-ordinating and working together - all the way through to clamping up process. Then take it all down to the starting point and do it again - you'll be surprised at how much better it goes the second time.Then take it all down again, talk about
the process with your crew and go for it. Adhesives are constantly improving - the 5200 might be the replacement of the Evercoat that I recommend - personally , I like the 2 part epoxy bond, but, as I said, things are always changing and getting better.
_________________
NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 1 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 4 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2024

[tim_ha]

Thanks for all of the support! The process went exceedingly well. I plan to post a detailed write-up of the build with lots of pictures in a new thread soon.

The relevant part for this thread is the process that my helpers and I came up with (sorry, no photos):
We followed J Charlton's excellent advice to do at least two dry runs of the process with a timer running so that we were well practiced for the real deal. We used two bottle jacks, one front and one rear, on the van roof to control the lifting and lowering. After all the prep, we aligned the top and, as others recommended, used painters tape that was put across the seam and then cut to give a final location check. With one person inside controlling the bottle jacks and two outside stabilizing the top from the sides, we lifted first the front, then the rear and put some wood blocks on the rear corners to stabilize. The lifting was done in reverse order of our lowering process.

With the top raised, we did the final wipe-down and applied epoxy. We had two caulk guns going and one person spreading the beads over the contact patch. One was a heavy duty high-ratio manual gun, the other was an electric gun with speed control that was dialed way down. I had great success with the electric gun and ended up applying about 2/3 of the epoxy. We were done with application in under 10 minutes . Ready to lower, one started lowering the rear bottle jack. He was able to set the jack to a very slow lowering speed and help push the sides of the top from the inside so as to not scrape down the applied epoxy. The two on the outside guided the side to side and also pulled outward to keep from scraping. With the rear lowered, some blocks were added inside between the top an the van roof to help bow the sides out away from the epoxy. The same general process was used to lower the front. Finally, the person inside released the sides and removed the blocks. This worked really well and we were able to lower the top with no scraping down of epoxy to within about 1/8" of the final location. With a slight position adjustment, we were ready to clamp. At this point we only had about 15 minutes on our epoxy timer.

On the passenger side, we used 8' 2x2 and some bar clamps that had been verified to provide good pressure the length of the side. The other side, we used yakima gutter mount towers with some shorter 1x boards jammed behind them and bar clamps to apply downward pressure. This also seemed to provide good pressure along the length. We were done in under 20 minutes and really happy with the process.

24 hours later I went returned to the shop, removed clamps, blew dust out of the van and drove it home. I will need to wait until next week to return and apply Sikaflex 221 to the front and rear and let that cure for a week in the heated shop. I also used left over epoxy and some scrap fiberglass from the window cutout and scrap metal to emulate the hightop seam for strength testing. This is mostly intended as a confidence builder so that next time I am driving on I-80 with 50mph cross winds, I won't be worried about the top flying off.

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1986 Syncro Sunroof EJ22
www.subagonsouth.com

[mikemtnbike]

Looks amazing, great color choice and I think the Maxxair fan actually soothes the lines a little bit.
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual

[dobryan]

Great job. Nice techniques.

I think I will copy some of them on my next one.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[jimf909]

Super sweet. There are so many things to like about your van. Thanks for posting the post-game report.
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- Jim

[DuncanS]

Congratulations--Very well done. You certainly followed the most important rule of all--the six Ps.

Duncan

[J Charlton]

I suggest that you run a liberal amount of the 221 applied from the inside and run down into the cavity between the top and the van along the sides as well as what you plan to do across the front and rear.
_________________
NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 1 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 4 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2024

[pnwkayaker]

This is a very nice top! Could you please indicate how you are planning to use the single airplane track on the side? Usually I see them in pairs..

[tim_ha]

[J Charlton]

The issue of having racking mounted directly on the fibreglass involves more than weight. No matter what the weight anything mounted on the outside will vibrate due to the movement of it through the air at speed. This vibration will be passed to the through fasteners that afix the track to the fibreglass and will ultimately result in cracking in the fibreglass. I discourage ANY through fasteners in a fibreglass top, especially to secure racking.
JC
_________________
NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 1 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 4 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2024

[DuncanS]

If the track were continuously bonded with 5200, you avoid the point loading of fasteners which is exactly why it is used to secure the deck to the hull of a sailing yacht.

Duncan

[tim_ha]

PSA to those Do-It-Yourself installers: I would strongly recommend against using Evercoat Maxim epoxy to adhere the hightop to your van.

I mocked up a overlap joint similar to that between the hightop and the van using some scrap angle iron and a chunk of fiberglass from one of my window cutouts. I prepped the metal using the same wire wheel that I used to remove paint on the van and scuffed the fiberglass using 80 grit sandpaper. The metal was cleaned with acetone and the fiberglass was cleaned with alcohol. Then, I bonded them together using leftover Evercoat Maxim 815.

After the 24 hour cure time, I tested the strength of my mock bond and was sorely disappointed. With with surprisingly little force, the epoxy stripped right off of the fiberglass leaving almost no residue. It did appear to have good adhesion to the metal. I tested it with a chisel and could not get the epoxy to break cleanly off of the metal like it did on the fiberglass side. The only thing that I can think I may have done wrong in surface prep would be that I didn't sand the fiberglass aggressively enough. One other comment on the epoxy... It cures very hard with no flexibility. This is another reason I would advise against its use. It will not allow for different expansion/contraction rates of the fiberglass and metal nor will it handle vibration very well.

I currently have a similar mock up using Sikaflex 221 curing and plan to do the same with 3M 5200. To save my situation and give me confidence in my hightop bond, I plan to squeeze a bunch of 3M 5200 down into the void between the roof and the hightop. I believe there is sufficient surface area down there to save my situation without trying to de-bond the Evercoat Maxim and potentially damaging the fiberglass.
_________________
1986 Syncro Sunroof EJ22
www.subagonsouth.com

[DuncanS]

Thanks for the update, Tim. This will head off potential users of the 813/15 in the future. Unfortunately, once an item gets listed, it becomes very difficult to get a mistake removed. I recommend that one of the administrators put this information in a sticky so future high toppers will get decent advice.

Went to FAQs and found this topic: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=20 On page 2 Hodakaguy mentions he used 813. He also put ropes over the top to help hold it down until the epoxy had cured. My guess is that since he did this after cleaning the outside and putting more 813 inside and cleaning that too, the epoxy had already set and the ropes probably didn't do much. With 5200 you have all day to do the job. BUT 5200 TAKES SEVERAL DAYS TO CURE SO DON'T EXPECT TO DRIVE OFF THE NEXT MORNING. Since it draws moisture out of the air to fully cure, in a dry climate--'Zona, Baja etc., you might need to wet the joint periodically. 5200 cures under water, so no problem there. Also a warning: 5200 once cured is irreversible without destruction to either the metal or fiberglass. It is permanent.

4200 fast cure would work too. Tack free in an hour and cures in 48. https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b40066971/

Duncan