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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:12 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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zak99B5 wrote: |
I thought I'd ask my question here rather than in a new thread--
Hitting bumps makes my van want to go out of alignment. Specifically, it can alter the camber setting. Even with grossly overtorqued hardware. It goes negative.
My question is if there's a torque arm at one position that can be eliminated.
Looking at the eccentric washer from the end of the UCA spindle, let's say my camber is in spec with the bolt at the 2 o'clock position. It should also be in spec with the bolt in about the 4 o'clock position, as it is equally as far from center as 2 o'clock.
With the bolt at 2 o'clock, the force of suspension compression (through the spindle) is along outside edge of the circle at an oblique angle, and its direction leads directly toward the spindle moving to 12 o'clock, its resting position because of gravity (where it would be if the spindle nut were never tightened).
Now, my thought is that at the 4 o'clock setting, the camber of the wheel would be the same, but suspension compression might not lead to losing camber adjustment because the torque arm would be smaller. But more importantly, the wheel would have to move through max positive camber (3 o'clock) to get to that resting position.
I guess I am thinking of it like an inverted bike pedal--it's much easier to push the pedal down to 6 o'clock from the 4 o'clock position than it is from the 2 o'clock. Even more pronounced difference in the 1 and 5 o'clock positions.
Does this make sense? And if it does, is it correct, or am I not seeing something? I'd like to know before I go into the alignment shop and try to explain all this to them that it is worth it...... |
Darn it, this van was at my shop not long ago and we talked until dark....about rust and bodywork.
I forgot to even ask about this and inspect the fastener and mount.
If you are down my way again, give me a shout in advance if possible and if no van is on the hoist I will put it in the air and check it unladen.
I have plenty of the bolts nuts and washers.
If you need some, I will help you out.
D |
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zak99B5 Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2014 Posts: 471 Location: Albany, NY
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:41 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Thanks, Dylan. I already have the new spindles and lock nuts from Van Cafe. The old spindles aren't rusted in place or anything, and I figured that the washers must still be fine.
If you don't mind, you can shoot me a text when you have some time. _________________ 1991 Tintop GL Manual tranny, EJ22 |
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zak99B5 Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2014 Posts: 471 Location: Albany, NY
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:47 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Christopher Schimke wrote: |
I completely understand your theory, and while it may work, I've never tried so I can't be sure.
The bigger question is why is the bolt not keeping the assembly tight enough to prevent it from rotating? If it were me, I would do a couple of things to try to resolve that issue. First, I would clean up any grease or other lubricant that may exist between the eccentric washers and the chassis. Second, I would make sure that the washer being used between the nut and the bushing sleeve is the correct one. It should be about 6mm to 6.5mm thick or so. If you have a thinner washer, it could be either deforming or possibly allowing the nut to bottom out on the threads. And the last thing, it may be that the nut is loosening on the threads. That nut is a self locking type and those are usually considered a one-time use item. Sure, lot's of people reuse them and get away with it, but that doesn't make it technically correct. |
I was hoping you might reply. Good to know I am not totally daft.
I have new spindles and the nuts from Van Cafe, and I noticed the locking on the nuts--makes sense that they are one-time use. Too bad I already used one of them.
I do think that the old nuts were loosening on the thread--I did at one point add blue loc-tite, and the alignment held much longer.
I am hoping that the all-new threads of the new spindles and nuts will hold tightly, keeping the alignment.
Would adding a split lock washer under the nut (redundant locking) be a bad idea in any way? _________________ 1991 Tintop GL Manual tranny, EJ22 |
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Farfrumwork Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2008 Posts: 692 Location: Mile High
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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First of all I'll state that I used a 'quick' DIY alignment after my syncro conversion, to settle everything in for a bit, and it was pretty damn good! Drove straight and smooth.
The alignment shop did make some minor adjustments (and it was better after) but the DIY was pretty 'on'
^^Zak - I would find some Stover nuts (locking, but not the nylon-lock type), or you could use some thin wave-washers (instead of the split lock washers)
_________________ sold -> '85 Wolfsburg Syncro / 'Built' DOHC EJ25 (a great machine!)
'07 Legacy spec.B, road tuned stgII
'17 4x4 Sprinter, stone grey, SMB pop-top, on 33"s
"Blood stains, speed kills - Fast cars, cheap thrills - Rich girls, fine wine - I've lost my sense, I've lost control, I've lost my mind" |
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yellowjacket Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2007 Posts: 141 Location: NCWA
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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skidub
The photos you posted show the large bushing washers are installed backwards, if I'm seeing that correctly. Look at the diagram on page 40.20 of your Bentley. "Washer collar away from rubber bushing"
I just replaced my radius arm bushings and I have lots of threads showing on the front side of the radius rod. Not sure if flipping the washers will have more threads exposed or not.
Dan _________________ 86 Syncro Westy - Bostig RG11
71 Squareback |
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stefanandr Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2008 Posts: 39 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 4:29 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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I found a much easier way to do Toe adjustment.
Buy one of those accurate laser measurement tools at the hardware store.
Then crawl under the front of the car while parkes on "near" level and with steering wheel in middle position.
Now you can measure the distance between the front wheel rim edge from one side to the other side, do the same on the rear rim edge and you have the Toe bu subtracting the two distances. Light-years easier than making the big setup from this article.
You can also use it to measure Toe on the rear wheels. _________________ I have two vanagons
1. 1986 vanagon westfalia camper with 2.3L gowesty engine and 5 speed AAP transmission I rebuild myself. I had this car for 27 years, its on the 3rd engine, and had it with me in Europe for 10 years. It has almost 400k miles on it.
2. 1987 vanagon westfalia camper with 2.2L gowesty engine and 5 speed AAP transmission. |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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pushkick Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2007 Posts: 1366
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:46 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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i havent used these tools but looks like it would do the alignment job at least caster and camber.
https://www.amazon.com/Swanson-SVT200-Digital-Torp..._pC_nS_ttl
http://www.harborfreight.com/24-inch-digital-laser-level-with-angle-finder-93884.html
i am a little confused at how that tool measures caster. seems like from the pic that you are measuring camber instead of caster.
here is a site that is a diy also
http://members.rennlist.com/captearlg/928aligndiy.html
Caster
The caster angle identifies the forward or backward slope of a line drawn through the upper and lower steering pivot points when viewed directly from the side of the vehicle. Caster is expressed in degrees and is measured by comparing a line running through the steering system's upper and lower pivot points (typically the upper and lower ball joints of an A-arm or wishbone suspension design, or the lower ball joint and the strut tower mount of a McPherson strut design) to a line drawn perpendicular to the ground. Caster is said to be positive if the line slopes towards the rear of the vehicle at the top, and negative if the line slopes towards the front.
A very visual example of positive caster is a motorcycle's front steering forks. The forks point forward at the bottom and slope backward at the top. This rearward slope causes the front tire to remain stable when riding straight ahead and tilt towards the inside of the corner when turned.
Caster angle settings allow the vehicle manufacturer to balance steering effort, high speed stability and front end cornering effectiveness.
Increasing the amount of positive caster will increase steering effort and straight line tracking, as well as improve high speed stability and cornering effectiveness. Positive caster also increases tire lean when cornering (almost like having more negative camber) as the steering angle is increased.
What's the downside to positive caster? If the vehicle doesn't have power steering, a noticeable increase in steering effort will be felt as positive caster is increased. Other than that, the effects of positive caster are pretty much "positive," especially increasing the lean of the tire when the vehicle is cornering while returning it to a more upright position when driving straight ahead. _________________ i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
i am going to quit smoking and drinking and die a healthy man. gotta laugh
there is no deed to the planet earth
1990 vw automatic camper |
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greebly Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2009 Posts: 966 Location: Here and now
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Just a heads up, I was in Sears automotive today to pick up an order and asked about their "lifetime" alignment the service advisor stated that it was $189.00 which seems like an excellent price. I asked how frequently it could be applied which gave him pause as he stated most that had the plan serviced their cars with them and that they would confirm values when the vehicle was in for other maintenance such as an oil change or repair. If it was out of alignment they would adjust it. When I stated that I did my own wrenching he stated that would void "warranty". If you are on their plan they must do all suspension work in order to keep the plan in effect. I do not know how Firestone handles this. |
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mellowslow Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2009 Posts: 278 Location: Vacationland
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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greebly wrote: |
Just a heads up, I was in Sears automotive today to pick up an order and asked about their "lifetime" alignment the service advisor stated that it was $189.00 which seems like an excellent price. I asked how frequently it could be applied which gave him pause as he stated most that had the plan serviced their cars with them and that they would confirm values when the vehicle was in for other maintenance such as an oil change or repair. If it was out of alignment they would adjust it. When I stated that I did my own wrenching he stated that would void "warranty". If you are on their plan they must do all suspension work in order to keep the plan in effect. I do not know how Firestone handles this. |
I recently purchased the lifetime alignment at Sullivan Tire(New England Chain) for $199. When I inquired , they did not mention any type of limitations. I was clear up front about personally replacing all suspension bushings and reconditioning associated hardware. (also brought tires I bought from eBay for them to mount ) They said it was cool and I'll have my moneys worth after only one return to the Hunter table. Sounds like the Sears Techs were fearing you pulling a "Homer Simpson at the Buffet" scenario?
It may have helped that a couple of the techs at my local franchise had their modded Mk IV dubs parked outside the shop. They showed respect for the van and actually called me when they had a question about mounting the wheels. _________________ '87 WBWE FAS Gen V |
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farlander Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2014 Posts: 4 Location: Denver
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:59 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Old post - New Thanks - SO MUCH!! |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:32 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Just getting into this thread... really appreciate it!
...but it is really a pity that so many of the instructional fotos are missing
Any way to correct that, or update it? _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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Mac_Daddy_Westy Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2011 Posts: 154 Location: San Antonio, Tx
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:05 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Yes, I second that, Instructional pics or videos please |
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takeiteasy Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2016 Posts: 169 Location: New York, NY
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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I was planning on replacing rear springs and shocks. (Gowesty 0 lift and konis). Is an alighnment required? _________________ '85 Weekender 1.9L
"With your past and your future precisely divided.
Am I at that moment? I haven't decided." |
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levi Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005 Posts: 5522 Location: Las Vegas
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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takeiteasy wrote: |
I was planning on replacing rear springs and shocks. (Gowesty 0 lift and konis). Is an alighnment required? |
I'll give you a solid "possibly".
Here do this;
Before you replace those rear springs/shocks, measure from the center axle to the fender lip.
After replacing them take the same measurements.
Get the same results?
I think you're good.
Measure again in a couple months, I haven't had the rears sag much but springs do settle in. _________________ One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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takeiteasy Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2016 Posts: 169 Location: New York, NY
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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I have classic '85 sag so was hoping it would cure a little of it. _________________ '85 Weekender 1.9L
"With your past and your future precisely divided.
Am I at that moment? I haven't decided." |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 9:59 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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I am now studying this set of instructions deeply and intend to try them out really soon... but the one problem I have is finding this alignment tool here in Europe, and in Czech in particular. I have asked some Czech friends for help but I am not too hopefully.
Does anyone here know what can be purchased in Europe to do this job? ...or is it possible to make a CASTER TOOL? [in the instructions it looks like it is possible to do CAMBER and TOE with home-made tools, but not CASTER.
Thanks! _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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pablum Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2015 Posts: 562
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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epowell wrote: |
I am now studying this set of instructions deeply and intend to try them out really soon... but the one problem I have is finding this alignment tool here in Europe, and in Czech in particular. I have asked some Czech friends for help but I am not too hopefully.
Does anyone here know what can be purchased in Europe to do this job? ...or is it possible to make a CASTER TOOL? [in the instructions it looks like it is possible to do CAMBER and TOE with home-made tools, but not CASTER.
Thanks! |
I recall a caster calc being a part of that diy thread using the camber tool. Turning the tire X degrees left and right and measuring the deflection from whatever the camber angle was, plug it in the formula and you have the caster. bang.
But I won't dig up the formula... _________________ The wise man learns from history, the fool from experience.
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I see [a cat] in the street and i aim for the pest with my car. -- bluebus86 |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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You mean to say that a CAMBER TOOL will also do CASTER?
...so all I need to do is find a tool which does CAMBER? _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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pablum Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2015 Posts: 562
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Right, because the only way the caster angle will work out to be the same as the camber is if the caster is zero.
( from here )
Looking carefully at the image you can work out that if you reposition the tool to vertical on the wheel after turning it the deflection from from the camber angle will change. There's a formula for that somewhere in that old thread (or if you gave me half a day I could dredge my pre-calc trig foo and figure it out.) _________________ The wise man learns from history, the fool from experience.
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I see [a cat] in the street and i aim for the pest with my car. -- bluebus86 |
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