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snwbrdr435 Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2013 Posts: 337 Location: North Of Boston
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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So since this thread has been bumped its time to ask a question regarding tire wear.
I've gotten multiple alignments at three different places. Front outer tire edges continue to wear very quickly. |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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pablum wrote: |
Right, because the only way the caster angle will work out to be the same as the camber is if the caster is zero.
( from here )
Looking carefully at the image you can work out that if you reposition the tool to vertical on the wheel after turning it the deflection from from the camber angle will change. There's a formula for that somewhere in that old thread (or if you gave me half a day I could dredge my pre-calc trig foo and figure it out.) |
OK, I am slowly slowly starting to "get" this, and luckily the more I learn the more simple and easy and straight-forward (no pun) it seems, but still I am confused about some things.
Finally I understand what CASTER is, and it suddenly struck me DUH!! "CASTERS" on a chair!! This vid explains it perfectly.
CAMBER and TOES are too easy and obvious. And THAT'S IT, THAT'S ALL!
Caster is adjusted by moving the Radius ROD inner nut (then tightening up the outer nut) --- Camber is adjusted by turning the UCA bolt --- Toes is adjusted by turning the tie rod nuts... I get it!
What I still don't get completely is:
1) WHAT is actually going on when Chris describes the procedure for measuring CASTER? It seems he is turning the wheel 20* outwards then measuring CAMBER at that position... then turning the wheel 20* in the other direction and measuring CAMBER there > then using a formula to determine CASTER.
2) If the above is true, then all that is necessary is a decent CAMBER tool and CASTER can be also done with this, correct? _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5390 Location: PNW
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:10 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Also see this other thread for more info on measure caster with a homemade tool.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679533
Quote: |
1) WHAT is actually going on when Chris describes the procedure for measuring CASTER? It seems he is turning the wheel 20* outwards then measuring CAMBER at that position... then turning the wheel 20* in the other direction and measuring CAMBER there > then using a formula to determine CASTER. |
Camber is only measured with the wheels pointing straight ahead. When the wheels are turned at the 20 degree angles, you are actually measuring (and then calculating) the caster angle.
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2) If the above is true, then all that is necessary is a decent CAMBER tool and CASTER can be also done with this, correct? |
The tool you made will work great when used correctly. See your other thread for an explanation. But yes, the same tool is used for measuring camber and caster, but each measurement must be done separately and in order. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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bobbyblack Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015 Posts: 4349 Location: United States, Iowa
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:40 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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snwbrdr435 wrote: |
So since this thread has been bumped its time to ask a question regarding tire wear.
I've gotten multiple alignments at three different places. Front outer tire edges continue to wear very quickly. |
I guess I'd want a bit more info from you. Regarding your situation: what size tires? I've heard that the tolerances can't be corrected far enough to accommodate very large or very wide tires.
Also, I've had experience with HOW I drive... taking turns like a madman in my youth had that kind of effect on my outer edge like you describe. _________________ '87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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yiucycle Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2007 Posts: 421
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Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:09 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Chris,
How long would you said to do this the first time and then once you get get the hang of it?? just wondering if i need to allocate the whole weekend for it. thanks _________________ 1980 2.8LV6 Fiero ASI/Riviera Vanagon
"there is no point in being embarrassed of all the stupid shit i done and will continue to do"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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o-town Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2014 Posts: 62 Location: Canada
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Checking the Bentley carefully, setting caster needs a bit of attention. The setting is 7 degrees 15'
BUT this corresponds to camber difference of wheel on lock from 20 degrees and right of 4 degrees 50'
First time I tried to achieve 7 degrees. Wasn't possible. Thank goodness, don't know what the handling would have been like
Surprised no one brought this up.
Caster proper setting using Chris' method is 4 degrees 50' plus/minus 10' |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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I completed a front-end alignment for the first time today. It took a bit of reading and a bit of doing before I really understood it all. I was really pleased with my setup which gave very accurate and repeatable results. For angle/level measurement I used an 'AccuRemote' digital level gauge (I give it a high recommendation). I made a tool similar to what Chris showed in the first post. I used some very beefy angle iron and a couple bolts for standoffs.
I wanted to mention that o-town's post is largely on point. According to the Bentley, the correct caster setting is 7° 15' but that is the angle if the rim were turned 90° which is obviously impossible. The difference between the rim turned 20° IN and 20° OUT should be 4° 50'. I appreciate that correction being pointed out, however the rest of the post doesn't make sense to me. O-town says that an adjustment of 7° 15' wasn't possible for them. That completely flies in the face of what I encountered. What I saw was that with the bushing all the way at the outer edge of the rod, the caster was @ approx 3°. Moving the nuts/bushing IN on the rod raised the caster and by the time the INNER nut was midway in the threads, the caster was over 9° on the van I was adjusting. I took a look at my three other vans and although I was not the one doing the last caster adjustment they are all near the outer end of the threads so fit with my experience.
O-town, if you could not go above 7° 15' of adjustment in caster, I suspect that you are not doing it correctly. It was easy for me to pass 7° 15° and was still on the 'low' side of the adjustment area. |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:56 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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?Waldo? wrote: |
I completed a front-end alignment for the first time today. It took a bit of reading and a bit of doing before I really understood it all. I was really pleased with my setup which gave very accurate and repeatable results. For angle/level measurement I used an 'AccuRemote' digital level gauge (I give it a high recommendation). I made a tool similar to what Chris showed in the first post. I used some very beefy angle iron and a couple bolts for standoffs.
I wanted to mention that o-town's post is largely on point. According to the Bentley, the correct caster setting is 7° 15' but that is the angle if the rim were turned 90° which is obviously impossible. The difference between the rim turned 20° IN and 20° OUT should be 4° 50'. I appreciate that correction being pointed out, however the rest of the post doesn't make sense to me. O-town says that an adjustment of 7° 15' wasn't possible for them. That completely flies in the face of what I encountered. What I saw was that with the bushing all the way at the outer edge of the rod, the caster was @ approx 3°. Moving the nuts/bushing IN on the rod raised the caster and by the time the INNER nut was midway in the threads, the caster was over 9° on the van I was adjusting. I took a look at my three other vans and although I was not the one doing the last caster adjustment they are all near the outer end of the threads so fit with my experience.
O-town, if you could not go above 7° 15' of adjustment in caster, I suspect that you are not doing it correctly. It was easy for me to pass 7° 15° and was still on the 'low' side of the adjustment area. |
That's really inspiring Andrew! I definitely hope one day to try to tackle this myself.
A bit off topic but I am a bit disappointed with the final result of my almost complete front end re-build from last year... I changed basically everything, except the front shocks because the PO said they were new...... but the ride is still very rough > so I think those front shocks must be toast (regardless of what the PO claims). I can't think what else the peoblem could be...
Great work on the DIY alignment - when I finally get a flat garage I will also try this! _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:49 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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I thought I'd give a follow up. I've been driving the van and the handling is excellent. That might have something to do with the new powerflex bushings all around along with the alignment.
I was very lucky in that the garage floor of the friend's shop where I worked on the alignment was within 1/8" of flat and level for all four tires. That's impressively flat and level for a concrete slab.
Here are pics of the tool I assembled for camber and caster:
I adjusted the height of the bolt standoffs by placing the tool flat on a hard surface, noting the level reading, then rotating the tool 180° so the foot locations were exactly swapped. I changed the protrusion of the bolts until the two readings matched exactly.
The quick square that is clamped to the angle is not used for measuring, but instead is just a convenient item I used so that when the tool is in place it triangulates the tool against the rim. At some point I will probably weld on an arm and add a third adjustable foot. The other magnetic level stuck to the angle is used to confirm that the angle iron is vertical while taking the reading.
For the digital level/angle finder, first I purchased a Harbor Freight model. Just don't - it was a POS. Wildly inaccurate. After that fiasco, I did some looking online and reading reviews to purchase the AccuRemote. I can confirm that it is accurate and the readings are repeatable. Very nice tool - recommended.
I would mention that it took me a fair amount of reading, looking, and thinking to really understand the caster measurement and adjustment. After actually understanding how to take an accurate reading of the various angles and how to adjust each, I find that the actual process of doing the alignment is quite easy.
Some things to note:
You want the van level for the caster reading/adjustment(place VCT shims under tires as necessary) but you do not need or even want the string jig in place for caster. It gets in the way of adjustment and you will knock it out of alignment. Set the string up after the caster measurment and adjustment just for the toe reading/adjustment.
The caster measurement for our vans is taken by rotating the wheel 20° to each side of straight ahead and finding the angular difference between those two measurements. Difference implies subtraction, but because one angle is on either side of 90°, if you are using a digital level/angle finder like what I show and are reading from absolute level, you need to ADD those two measurements together. An alternative is to turn the wheel to the first 20° position, take a reading and zero the gauge. Then rotate the wheel 40° to the other position and take another reading. Having zeroed the tool on the initial angle, the tool will give the total angular difference which according to the Bentley should be 4° 50'.
The van I was adjusting had power-steering and the 1-1/8 turn of the steering wheel was exactly 20° as Chris had mentioned previously. That was quite helpful for repeating readings. Double-check to be sure your van is the same, but after double-checking, going off the steering wheel rotation is much easier/faster than setting up the straight edge on the sidewall and measuring the 20° rotation each time.
To increase the positive caster, move the nuts/bushing onto the radius rod further. I found that approx. 3 full turns of the nuts was ~1°.
The Bentley does not differentiate the caster angle spec for power-steering equipped vans vs. manual steering vans. From what I have read, I imagine that power-steering equipped vans could be adjusted for a higher positive caster adjustment with good results (better straight-line driving and cornering). The manual steering equipped vans might get a bit harder to turn, especially at low speeds (e.g. parking), if positive caster is increased above spec.
After learning the process I have to say it is quite easy to perform. I will certainly never pay someone to mess up my alignment again, and instead will do it right myself. I really appreciate Chris' original write-up for all the excellent info it provides and for inspiring me to learn this skill and eliminate the last reason I've had for allowing any 'professional' knuckle-dragger to touch a wrench to any of my vehicles. |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5390 Location: PNW
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:06 am Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Man, that's an awesome addition to this thread. Thank you for taking the time to show and tell.
And apologies and thanks to the people who have corrected my mistakes in the original post (mostly math mistakes). I wish it were possible to go back and edit old posts, but at least people have set the record straight. Doing big how-to threads like this is time consuming and unfortunately I simply got caught up in other details and missed the mistakes. Luckily others caught them. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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No need for any apologies, Chris. Your initial post is inspirational. I have nothing but appreciation for your input. |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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No need for any apologies, Chris. Your initial post is really excellent and much appreciated. I actually wonder if on power steering equipped vans the 7°50' positive caster would perform better than the spec of 4°50'. |
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targabill Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2011 Posts: 22
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Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Very nice write up on alignment,
I did an interesting twist on this, Instead of using string, I used a floor laser square to do the alignment, very quick to set up and square it up, when done measuring you should have a perfect rectangle marked on the floor with exact parallel sides.. Board leaning on the back is just to show the laser..
You can use a level to get exact vertical. And measure from hub center to get Square across the front.. You then can measure both directions at 12, 3, 6, & 9 O'clock..
Worked great on front and rear...
Last edited by targabill on Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:49 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9800 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Nice set-up.
targabill wrote: |
...You then can measure both directions at 12, 3, 6, & 9 O'clock.. |
And you finally get to use the arctangent key on your calculator. |
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E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6545 Location: Westfalia, Earth
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Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Christopher Schimke wrote: |
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Chris, your OP may be the most-brilliant thing ever seen here.
I admit to not reading your OP yet but will, and hope to employ your technique very soon.
Being around race cars my whole life, the string method is known to me. at least in the basic principles.
Respectfully,
Impressed but not Sucking Up
Very well done!!!! _________________ ‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22648 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Ahwahnee wrote: |
Nice set-up.
targabill wrote: |
...You then can measure both directions at 12, 3, 6, & 9 O'clock.. |
And you finally get to use the arctangent key on your calculator. |
Doesn’t that summon the dyslexic dark archangle _________________ .ssS! |
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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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Chris, do you still have the images for the original post? _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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All the images in the original post still work fine. |
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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment |
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?Waldo? wrote: |
All the images in the original post still work fine. |
You are right. The firewall at work was blocking them Thanks _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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