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What is the real difference? Mahle VS. Chinese
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xSUPER72
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i got the cast chinese 87mm P&C's only cus the mahle ones were twice the price Shocked so instead of $320 it was $160. which i think they work perfect because its not a street machine just a daily driver
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: A Reply with quote

jbreddawg wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
If it was the same quality it'd be the same price.


Now that's a statement worth repeating !!



And it would be just as untrue as when you said it the first time.
Cost is irrelevent to quality once materials, engineering amd workmanship have been satisfied. Having spent the better part of my life in over 3000 factories.....I can tell you that statement can be made true and untrue in the blink of an eye.

There are identical parts all over my vehicles that have varying prices. I can find the same part in better quality...for less...as long as the company that makes it produces them on a larger scale or by a faster method. Also.....take machine tools for instance. I can buy Polish made machine tools that far exceed the quality ofsome of the big names like Mahr and Brown and Sharpe. ....for a fraction. Not all of them are that good...but many are. Its a labor cost and tarrif thing...and the fact that because they could make them just slightly cheaper.....they are able to sell them to more people in more countries....so their volume is about double the ouput of the other similar companies.........production scale reduces price.

The reason China is doing so well....and getting better...is because they are one of the last bastions of vertically integrated he3avy mechanical industries on the planet. The ycan make things....that we are no longer capable of making at an affordable cost.....and some thinsg we are no longer capable of making at all. There are others who do this too but not as widespread....India, Vietnam etc.

The vertical ntegration thing is beating our ass MUCH more than cheap labor costs. We have not had vertically integrated factory complexes outside of the military industrial complex since the 1930's. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TS Forums is LITTERED with posts of guys that got defective chinese pistons and cylinders. The # of posts with defective brazilian or german ones, is a small fraction of the chinese rejects. And most of those are broken fins or rings, not a mfg issue.

Guys that want to gamble with the cheap chinese junk are rolling the dice.

They might work, they might not, but I don't think the customer should be doing the product testing and quality control.

MOST OF THE TIME you are making a mistake when buying Chinese parts. They can make a high quality part, but rarely do (argue about why in another thread).
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: A Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
jbreddawg wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
If it was the same quality it'd be the same price.


Now that's a statement worth repeating !!



And it would be just as untrue as when you said it the first time.
Cost is irrelevent to quality once materials, engineering amd workmanship have been satisfied. Having spent the better part of my life in over 3000 factories.....I can tell you that statement can be made true and untrue in the blink of an eye.

There are identical parts all over my vehicles that have varying prices. I can find the same part in better quality...for less...as long as the company that makes it produces them on a larger scale or by a faster method. Also.....take machine tools for instance. I can buy Polish made machine tools that far exceed the quality ofsome of the big names like Mahr and Brown and Sharpe. ....for a fraction. Not all of them are that good...but many are. Its a labor cost and tarrif thing...and the fact that because they could make them just slightly cheaper.....they are able to sell them to more people in more countries....so their volume is about double the ouput of the other similar companies.........production scale reduces price.

The reason China is doing so well....and getting better...is because they are one of the last bastions of vertically integrated he3avy mechanical industries on the planet. The ycan make things....that we are no longer capable of making at an affordable cost.....and some thinsg we are no longer capable of making at all. There are others who do this too but not as widespread....India, Vietnam etc.

The vertical ntegration thing is beating our ass MUCH more than cheap labor costs. We have not had vertically integrated factory complexes outside of the military industrial complex since the 1930's. Ray


Verticle integration means a complex that produces a product from raw material to complete product.Fords River Rouge plant is a classic example of verticle integration. It requires a massive investment in infrastructure and is an inefficient manufacturing technique,which is why the automakers got away from process.The reason the chinese do it is a lack of infrastructure in country...power grid in particular.Cheap labor costs and lax pollution standards are what allow verticle integration to thrive,not effeciency
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: A Reply with quote

johnnypan wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
jbreddawg wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
If it was the same quality it'd be the same price.


Now that's a statement worth repeating !!



And it would be just as untrue as when you said it the first time.
Cost is irrelevent to quality once materials, engineering amd workmanship have been satisfied. Having spent the better part of my life in over 3000 factories.....I can tell you that statement can be made true and untrue in the blink of an eye.

There are identical parts all over my vehicles that have varying prices. I can find the same part in better quality...for less...as long as the company that makes it produces them on a larger scale or by a faster method. Also.....take machine tools for instance. I can buy Polish made machine tools that far exceed the quality ofsome of the big names like Mahr and Brown and Sharpe. ....for a fraction. Not all of them are that good...but many are. Its a labor cost and tarrif thing...and the fact that because they could make them just slightly cheaper.....they are able to sell them to more people in more countries....so their volume is about double the ouput of the other similar companies.........production scale reduces price.

The reason China is doing so well....and getting better...is because they are one of the last bastions of vertically integrated he3avy mechanical industries on the planet. The ycan make things....that we are no longer capable of making at an affordable cost.....and some thinsg we are no longer capable of making at all. There are others who do this too but not as widespread....India, Vietnam etc.

The vertical ntegration thing is beating our ass MUCH more than cheap labor costs. We have not had vertically integrated factory complexes outside of the military industrial complex since the 1930's. Ray


Verticle integration means a complex that produces a product from raw material to complete product.Fords River Rouge plant is a classic example of verticle integration. It requires a massive investment in infrastructure and is an inefficient manufacturing technique,which is why the automakers got away from process.The reason the chinese do it is a lack of infrastructure in country...power grid in particular.Cheap labor costs and lax pollution standards are what allow verticle integration to thrive,not effeciency


Honestly, reading about this vertical integration is as interesting to me than the actual specs of the cylinders, just on a different level. Still way cool. I have always wondered about this, and now I understand *why*.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: A Reply with quote

johnnypan wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
jbreddawg wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
If it was the same quality it'd be the same price.


Now that's a statement worth repeating !!



And it would be just as untrue as when you said it the first time.
Cost is irrelevent to quality once materials, engineering amd workmanship have been satisfied. Having spent the better part of my life in over 3000 factories.....I can tell you that statement can be made true and untrue in the blink of an eye.

There are identical parts all over my vehicles that have varying prices. I can find the same part in better quality...for less...as long as the company that makes it produces them on a larger scale or by a faster method. Also.....take machine tools for instance. I can buy Polish made machine tools that far exceed the quality ofsome of the big names like Mahr and Brown and Sharpe. ....for a fraction. Not all of them are that good...but many are. Its a labor cost and tarrif thing...and the fact that because they could make them just slightly cheaper.....they are able to sell them to more people in more countries....so their volume is about double the ouput of the other similar companies.........production scale reduces price.

The reason China is doing so well....and getting better...is because they are one of the last bastions of vertically integrated he3avy mechanical industries on the planet. The ycan make things....that we are no longer capable of making at an affordable cost.....and some thinsg we are no longer capable of making at all. There are others who do this too but not as widespread....India, Vietnam etc.

The vertical ntegration thing is beating our ass MUCH more than cheap labor costs. We have not had vertically integrated factory complexes outside of the military industrial complex since the 1930's. Ray


Verticle integration means a complex that produces a product from raw material to complete product.Fords River Rouge plant is a classic example of verticle integration. It requires a massive investment in infrastructure and is an inefficient manufacturing technique,which is why the automakers got away from process.The reason the chinese do it is a lack of infrastructure in country...power grid in particular.Cheap labor costs and lax pollution standards are what allow verticle integration to thrive,not effeciency


Actually they both do. All of the late 19th and early to mid 20th century complexes in thsi country were alowable due to one of two phenomena....(a) the vast influx of cheap skilled immigrant labor (not what we have now) and (b) The vast spending of federal government during and after both world wars.

China is just simply drawing to the end of what WAS our first phase into this...cheap labor.
If you don't know the level of high tech spending that is going on in China right now.....I sincerely suggest you do your homework. The level of hightech spending in our country pales in comparison.

as I noted...I have come to have a healthy respect for "some" portions of Chinese society right now. Their relaization as to their perilous place within the industrial world is one of these.
Give you an example: where in the world is the vast majority of mid-level solar photovoltaic energy cells produced? Silicone valley?....Germany?...the PV belt in Spain or the Netherlands...? ....Bzzzzzz.....nope.....CHINA. There are over 300 production plants that have come off the ground in the past two years alone. Over 50% of those are producing mid to high level PV cells...and have "0" outside funding or design. They are home grown.
There ARE no low quality low tech prducts in the solar PV realm. That IS rocket science. Plants start in the $200 million range even oveer there.

I can give you examples all day long of integrated circuits ...and heavy machine products that are TOP NOTCH quality and are made in CHINA.

Yes....alot of that improvemnet has been made by the investments of American companies.....but until everyone gets their head out of their backside and starts realizing that these guys can compete....you will not know it until they roll over your ass. If we ever hope to get business back to this continent....you better acknowledge the competition.

TS Forums is LITTERED with posts of guys that got defective chinese pistons and cylinders. The # of posts with defective brazilian or german ones, is a small fraction of the chinese rejects. And most of those are broken fins or rings, not a mfg issue.

Guys that want to gamble with the cheap chinese junk are rolling the dice.

They might work, they might not, but I don't think the customer should be doing the product testing and quality control.

MOST OF THE TIME you are making a mistake when buying Chinese parts. They can make a high quality part, but rarely do (argue about why in another thread).


John...for the most part I always agree with you. You and your business are one of the few who walk the line and offer quality well made parts and back those parts. Jake Raby too.

Yesh....the TS forums are littered with posts by guys that got screwed by Chinese PARTS...and not all them are pistons. The same can also 100% be said about 100's guys who have been screwed by defective Brazilian pistons and brake cylinders.
There are no Mahle ACVW piston sets that I know of...unless they have cranked up again....that are made in Germany anymore. Just correct me if I'm wrong please.
The quality is better on Brazilian....as compared to China....but nowhere near enough to trust on name alone.

This Chinese piston quality issue has gotten MUCH MUCH better. It goes back to the "whats it worth to you argument".
I personally think you should always buy the best quality parts you can to make your car as reliable and safe as you can...even if you have to save a bit to do it.
This is especially so if you are building a high performance engine or a $6-10,000 type 4 engine.

However....at some point....good enough is good enough. For a modified stocker....a Chinese Piston that measures in cylinder clearance and pin height properly....and has correct taper and ovailty in cylinders...is not better or worse than a Brazilian made Mahle.
Yes...the Mahle might last 125k before the skirts collapse...and the Chinese piston only 75K (and we don't know that at all...do we?).....but for the price.....its not bad for a work horse or a weekend car.

Here is the other reason I even look at these and I'll say it again. John...you don't have a horse in the race for the products I need.
Do you have a set of Brazilian, Mexican, or German Mahle's or Brazilian or German Kolbenschmidt domed pistons and cylinders......or even just pistons in standard or first...or even second oversize....to fit the 1.7L type 4 I am building? Can you even get them? Doubtful.
If you can...I'll give you $600 for the set at the end of this month...no shit!......so this aint about being cheap. Its about whats good enough for what I'm willing to spend for my application. And no...I'm not inmeterested in flat tops of dishes...they do not work the same with my application.
I found two sets of domed 90's complete with cylinders yesterday....for $1,200 and $1,400 respectively. Sorry...out of my budget.

The only game in town for the product I require...are the AA's. So much as we all hate them...in certain situations we better start looking at them.

Like I noted. I would pay $600 a set for NOS domes and cylinders for my car...in perfect shape...because at the very end of availability that was about the going rate for a set around 2000 or 2001. Any more than that and I can have a custom set made by J&E and hone my jugs.
Just some thoughts. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to say: Don't handle the pistons and cylinders like I did and just put them back in the box. Already they have a lot of rust on them, and inside. Even on the tops of the piston rings. I thought this dry climate wouldn't hurt them but I was wrong. Always coat every surface in oil right out of the box!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I just finished a top end rebuild, pistons, cylinders, rings, pins. I used Mahle set for a stock 1300cc beetle engine. I,m very pleased with the result. The Mahle sets are expensive here in ireland, at 200 euros, but I think it was worth it,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoG7AMZOIYI

oirish
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnnypan wrote:
Anyone ever use Moresa P/C's ?...they are mexican, a friend got me a set I used in a backup motor....Moresa makes pistons for GM according to their website,they look to be good quality and measured out ok...just wondering if anyone knows how long they last...


were they in a yellow and blue box?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering all of the Jettas, passats and new beetles are made in Mexico...I think its safe to say that their economy can produce quality parts. It has taken a qhile to import the quality ethics to central and southern america.
It will take a while to get them in China...but there is no reason to think they won't eventually get it as well.
In General...I try not to buy Chinese parts simply because It really is a lot of work to verify every detail of quality before I use it. What I have been getting at is that they are improving and have improved. Its up to each person to inspect every part they buy no matter who makes it. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tundrawolf wrote:
I just want to say: Don't handle the pistons and cylinders like I did and just put them back in the box. Already they have a lot of rust on them, and inside. Even on the tops of the piston rings. I thought this dry climate wouldn't hurt them but I was wrong. Always coat every surface in oil right out of the box!


this is also applicable to any steel components... the oils in your hands will leave rusty spots very quickly... early on in my engine "building" days, I had a cool camshaft that have very clear rusty fingerprints... when I say clear, they could be used to identify me!... I recieve my engine parts, then clean then thoroughly and spray them down with WD40 to displace the moisture from cleaning, and then promptly place them in sealed plastic... sometimes I wipe them down with oil if they will be LONG term stored.. but WD40(that I buy in the gallon jug and spray bottle) does a great job for this...(same thing can happen when doing bodywork, oils from your skin will cause rust)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to use WD-40 as a storage lube, but it cuts grease, and I didn't like the idea of anything that thins out assembly-lube it going inside my engine, even in tiny doses. Now I use a sprayer full of diesel for long-term storage of shiny bits, and freezer bags, and/or industrial shrink-wrap as an air tight cover. Of course, I have unlimited access to all of the above, which helps.

I'm sure my aversion to WD-40 is freaking nuerotic, but an ounce of prevention...
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitz. wrote:
I used to use WD-40 as a storage lube, but it cuts grease, and I didn't like the idea of anything that thins out assembly-lube it going inside my engine, even in tiny doses. Now I use a sprayer full of diesel for long-term storage of shiny bits, and freezer bags, and/or industrial shrink-wrap as an air tight cover. Of course, I have unlimited access to all of the above, which helps.

I'm sure my aversion to WD-40 is freaking nuerotic, but an ounce of prevention...
WD-40 is nothing more than Kerosene, and a minimal amount isn't going to affect the viscosity of the engine oil. You're beyond neurotic and are living in full blown OCD territory.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary wrote:
You're beyond neurotic and are living in full blown OCD territory.


Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genuine Volkswagen...
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think Antonio is just showing off... Laughing

Antonio, are those still readily available to you in Mexico? what does a set of those OEM sets cost in USD?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary wrote:
Fitz. wrote:
I used to use WD-40 as a storage lube, but it cuts grease, and I didn't like the idea of anything that thins out assembly-lube it going inside my engine, even in tiny doses. Now I use a sprayer full of diesel for long-term storage of shiny bits, and freezer bags, and/or industrial shrink-wrap as an air tight cover. Of course, I have unlimited access to all of the above, which helps.

I'm sure my aversion to WD-40 is freaking nuerotic, but an ounce of prevention...
WD-40 is nothing more than Kerosene, and a minimal amount isn't going to affect the viscosity of the engine oil. You're beyond neurotic and are living in full blown OCD territory.


Apologies to fellow users for the quote-feature...

Pretty sure we're splitting hairs here, but WD-40 is about 50% hexane (which is a solvent used to extract oils), 25% LPG, which is not a lube at all, and the remainder is mineral oil, and inert ingredients... WD is fine for displacing water, but it does displace oil too, awfully well. I'd use it if I had it sitting around too--anything that inhibits rust is a good idea!--but why not use diesel, which displaces water, is classed as a lubricant, and in my case, free?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitz. wrote:

Pretty sure we're splitting hairs here, but WD-40 is about 50% hexane (which is a solvent used to extract oils), 25% LPG, which is not a lube at all, and the remainder is mineral oil, and inert ingredients... WD is fine for displacing water, but it does displace oil too, awfully well. I'd use it if I had it sitting around too--anything that inhibits rust is a good idea!--but why not use diesel, which displaces water, is classed as a lubricant, and in my case, free?


as I've said before, there's more than one way to rip the skin off that proverbial kitty cat... use what works for ya... WD works for me because I like to clean the parts thoroughly, which means finishing with soap and water, then spray the wd to displace the water... I used to use a cloth to dry them, but experienced light flash rust... not a huge issue, but the WD displaces the water without flashrust happening... a plus to me.. add to that, the WD somewhat evaporates away and leaves just the light oil base. and on a personal note, i'd rather smell WD40 than diesel considering I usually do this stuff in my basement of my home...
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denatured alcohol works well for that too, it evaportaes really fast. With diesel, you negate the soap and water step, assemble, run, break-in change the oil, and so on...

But please, do what works for you. Your method sounds like a fine way to go. Clean is clean, regardless of how you arrive there.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
i think Antonio is just showing off...

Antonio, are those still readily available to you in Mexico? what does a set of those OEM sets cost in USD?

Bugninva: The sets are available, but these ones are genuine Volkswagen, not OEM. Sellers are not allowed to post ads in this forum, so I will send you a PM.
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