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danfromsyr
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Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15141
Location: Syracuse, NY
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 Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:09 am Post subject: |
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RSXSR, a Torque Mount? like the 'snubber' used on the inline VWs & Audis. an observation I finally figured out is that in the front the engine wants to lift when the gas is applied heavy.
but in the back it'll want to squat... well it'll try to lift the Front (front is front) where the Trans mount is located.
so if you have excessive movement or a knock under heavy acceleration (can we say that in vanagons, well they are heavy afterall) but a new front trans mount is like $39 and likely overdue (they tend to break loose of the mountings.
our engines don't try to twist much as that's a front engine rear drive issue (the driveshaft & rear axle create a torque wrap buildup)
just food for thought.. I don't think a snubber is necessary, and I'm hanging 5 cyls off the back end in Mom's & my brother's vans.
| rsxsr wrote: |
| I am also going to incorporate at mount on the timing belt side of the engine to the rear valance to limit the up and down movement. |
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Jonesy02719
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Joined: October 14, 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Fairhaven, MA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| rsxsr wrote: |
| If from a US Vanagon, looking at the photo, you have diesel engine carrier bars from an 82 Vanagon Diesel or the early style. I think you need more than just the bars to do your installation. You will need the engine brackets, a diesel bellhousing, and some other misc things if you intend to install the engine at 50 degrees. |
When I ran the VIN, it was supposedly an 83, though I know the PO did replace the engine at some point. I did grab all the other stuff (tranny, mounts, hoses, reservoirs), but one of the engine mounting brackets was cracked in several places and I will have to source a new one. |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17105
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Dan, I am not exactly sure about the movement. I have not seen it. I had a mechanical friend who helped with the conversion following me one night. The turbo outlet pipe is visible from behind the van. He noticed that it seemed to be moving up and down quite a bit during the shifts. We have a chassis dyno in the shop and I intend to do some runs and try an pin point the vibration/resonance point. I will shoot some video as well. It won't hurt to add support. I intend to use the actual RS mount from the New Beetle. In the thread above, there was some interesting reading from the gerryvanagon forum about chasing resonance on larger bore/stroke inline 4 bangers.
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Kaiser Soze wrote: |
| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
| So, my 1.6TD with the '83 carrier bars has much less vibration than my 2.0L ABA with the '82 bars. Folks here are saying that the '82 bars cause less vibration and the ABA causes less vibration. Which is it? |
The exhaust and the transmission mount. |
Maybe. Those are both different than in my '83, but I wouldn't assume it is that as opposed to the carrier bar setup or engine displacement. |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17105
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
| So, my 1.6TD with the '83 carrier bars has much less vibration than my 2.0L ABA with the '82 bars. Folks here are saying that the '82 bars cause less vibration and the ABA causes less vibration. Which is it? |
Andrew, that is the million dollar question when doing this type of conversion. I can't see where one is better than the other to be honest, more how do you make what you have better. It would seem the earlier would better isolate vibration from the chassis, but it is unlikely that VW would have gone to the trouble to redesign the carrier and mounts in the later diesel, if they though it would isolate worse. A diesel rabbit would shake the dash out of it when the r/s mount would collapse. You could replace the mount and 6 months later the vibration would be back. The vanagon is a huge open box, I think it amplifies the resonance. On my setup, I fabricated from scratch the engine brackets to fit the stock diesel mounts. No science or engineering, just adapter brackets. I have to assume my install is part of the problem specific to my Vanagon. I know that there were a lot of things done to eliminate vibration in bigger stroke/bore engines. The porsche 944 had counter rotating shafts driven by the crankshaft to deal with this. VW had a weight you could add to the front bumper of a rabbit to help "smooth" out the diesel vibration.
For me, I originally just wanted to finish the conversion. Not much time was spent on the engine mounting. Not to brag, but my Vanagon is awsome and I think it can be even better. I would not pay someone to chase this resonance, but I am willing to try a few more things. It could be something as simple as one of the intercooler pipes. mark
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17105
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:25 pm Post subject: Update |
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Well, I pulled the trigger and decided to upgrade my carrier bars to handle the Saab engine mounts. I ended up cutting off completely the stock mount brackets from the carriers and coming up with my own design of support. The mounts are intended to be supported by the rim around the entire mount, not just by the mounting tabs. I also added a torque mount, designed around some parts I had from a VW rabbit.
It took six days solid work to complete. Driving impressions? Wow!!!
What a difference. I knew it could be better than it was. No resonance or vibration regardless of load or rpm. The torque mount was added after completeing the Saab mounts. The engine was even more free to move now up and down at the crank with the hydraulic mounts. If you are reading this and intend to upgrade, plan on the torque mount as well.
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10365
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Awesome! Great to hear about the improvement.
Thanks for posting pics.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2325
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:11 pm Post subject: Saab hydraulic mounts |
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Mark, what's the latest report on the performance of the Saab hydraulic mounts?
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17105
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Andy, The hydraulic mounts are holding up fine. I think it is about as smooth as you can make it. Andy, I sent you an email addressing some of your questions. I am out of the office the next few days, but am checking email. mark
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2325
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:15 am Post subject: Mounts, bars, tubes, etc |
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Mark,
One thing I've scratched my head about several times is the space there for the mount, turbo, turbo plumbing, etc.
So, in trying to work everything into it's place, did you consider indexing (if that's the right term) the Turbo pressure discharge pipe in another direction?
Seems the discharge pipe could be rotated about 90 degrees and allowed plumbing with fewer elbows.
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10365
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| rsxsr wrote: |
Been doing some more digging. I really like how the Saab mount was fitted using the bulk of the stock carrier 82 Vanagon diesel bars. If you have these carrier bars and the bellhousing, it seems like a reasonable solution. I came across this photo. Saab 900 81-94 might be it. Saab part number from the one picture is 75 45 650 and appears to be a valid part number still.
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I was just re reading Frank G's comments and pics on exhaust manifolds/mounts. That PN is shown (sort of) in one of his images; 75 45 650.
This link shows (some? all?) of the years it was used
http://www.autocarspare.com/catalog/engine-mount/7545650.html
Rockauto shows this Beck/Arnley part as a pricey though. ~ $96 or $100
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=476020
I'm thinking of making bars a la DV for my upright 15* install. In my case I could fit pretty much what I want as I'd be starting from scratch. Looks like cantilevering brackets on engine is ok. In fact the stock Jetta arm d-side may reach w/o much issue. But I digress....
Still thinking of using Mk3 hydro mounts but thought I'd post what I found on Saab mount.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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tristessa
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| Looks like cantilevering brackets on engine is ok. In fact the stock Jetta arm d-side may reach w/o much issue. But I digress.... |
Take a look at VW Fox motor mount arms (IIRC, the Audi 80 w/3A engine is the same) while you're at it, I used those to put a 1.8L at 15*deg in my Baywindow. I used Ford Tempo hydraulic transmission mounts and they work great, quiet & smooth except for the 34-3800RPM resonance I *think* I solved this weekend.
Anchor P/N 2696, transmission mount for '86-'94 Tempo GL with ATX/Mazda automatic. $10.59/each @ RockAuto |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10365
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| tristessa wrote: |
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| Looks like cantilevering brackets on engine is ok. In fact the stock Jetta arm d-side may reach w/o much issue. But I digress.... |
Take a look at VW Fox motor mount arms (IIRC, the Audi 80 w/3A engine is the same) while you're at it, I used those to put a 1.8L at 15*deg in my Baywindow. I used Ford Tempo hydraulic transmission mounts and they work great, quiet & smooth except for the 34-3800RPM resonance I *think* I solved this weekend.
Anchor P/N 2696, transmission mount for '86-'94 Tempo GL with ATX/Mazda automatic. $10.59/each @ RockAuto |
Cool. Thanks for the info.
I too am using Fox brackets with aftermarket Fox mounts, on my stock upright ABA. Altered p-side bracket to clear oil filter, coolant inlet but it's holding up.
IF fore/aft support bar fits in/around alternator etc., I'd extend p-side engine Fox bracket to meet it. For d-side, Jetta engine bracket should allow more room for down pipes (primaries) as mount would sit closer to pulley end. This would allow easier design of primaries and would keep heat away from wires. etc. You can see in pic that I had to work around the Fox setup.
FWIW to others re: resonance, my new Ernst WBX muffler is louder and seems to exacerbate engine vibration noise. Though (IMO) the Walker Texas Ranger Quiet Flow 3 muffler was a crap product, it was quieter. A possibly nit picky incorrect thought. Obvious noise increase of muffler aside, (and I will triple check that the new exhaust bracket I made isn't contributing,), I really think muffler choice has an effect on engine vibration sound heard. If that makes sense.
Edit: and my apologies for putting 15* stuff in a 50* thread. If that's not cool guys, let me know. I figure the mount info is somewhat relevant, but I do get off on tangents. 
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15141
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:48 am Post subject: |
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on my 50* jetta 1.8l I've been running the stock DV exhasut system completely.
and while it may not breath as well, didn't VW used to restrict the exhaust on the early bus&splits to increase some torque factor?
I dunno, but the DV muffler is dang near the same size as the stock vanagon aircooled & waterboxer mufflers (just with the DV brackets welded on) and i've swapped DV hanger bits onto a Wbox muffler in Dad's 82 DV once..
the part I like about the all stock DV system is the parts are available off the shelf w/o any fabrication when the rot or fall off.
and I've had no issues with cracking though I do replace the cheap(econo) rubber mounts about each year. but my system lines up a slight bit tweaked (under tension against the rubber mounts)
anyways, I'm fairly happy with the exhaust sounds of the stock DV system.. if one is going the 50* and doesn't need a catalytic converter.
$65 muffler from PartsGeek
$22 connector pipe from PartsGeek
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10365
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| danfromsyr wrote: |
on my 50* jetta 1.8l I've been running the stock DV exhasut system completely.
and while it may not breath as well, didn't VW used to restrict the exhaust on the early bus&splits to increase some torque factor?
I dunno, but the DV muffler is dang near the same size as the stock vanagon aircooled & waterboxer mufflers (just with the DV brackets welded on) and i've swapped DV hanger bits onto a Wbox muffler in Dad's 82 DV once..
the part I like about the all stock DV system is the parts are available off the shelf w/o any fabrication when the rot or fall off.
and I've had no issues with cracking though I do replace the cheap(econo) rubber mounts about each year. but my system lines up a slight bit tweaked (under tension against the rubber mounts)
anyways, I'm fairly happy with the exhaust sounds of the stock DV system.. if one is going the 50* and doesn't need a catalytic converter.
$65 muffler from PartsGeek
$22 connector pipe from PartsGeek |
yah Bill uses a toilet bowl + DV parts. Swears by it. Judging from his pics, that exhaust has been fine for some time.
One option I considered was a (I think) Gti or turbo exhaust single outlet manifold. IIRC, this would put the outlet further forward away from d-side mount.
No doubt the DV hangers (I'm using 3) make a big positive difference.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12114
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| kayakwesty wrote: |
Do it the easy way
Call Steve at the Autobahnsociety
and buy his mounts and bars.
I have his setup and its super smooth...like silk..just as smooth as the boxer I had.
http://theautobahnsociety.com/
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Does anyone else have experience with the Mercedes hydraulic mounts on a 50 degree install like depicted above? I find them attractive, 'cause I have lots of experience with them and they only require a single mounting point on top and bottom
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'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Captain Pike
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Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3336
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
yah Bill uses a toilet bowl + DV parts. Swears by it. Judging from his pics, that exhaust has been fine for some time.
No doubt the DV hangers (I'm using 3) make a big positive difference.
Neil. |
DV parts with a twist. I sandwiched large rubber exhaust hangers where the muffler mounts to the oil pan.
So with the toilet bowl and the rubber bits I pretty much killed any vibration in the cab. It may buzz like nutz but I cant feel it. No cracks.
Oh yea,stock cat and muffler from a 2.1. No O2 as I'm CIS basic 
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59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
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BlackDogVan
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Joined: December 21, 2007
Posts: 855
Location: Vancouver Island
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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I missed something along the way... what's the toilet bowl?
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Gone but not forgotten - 1991 Carat - AAZ transmogriffied to mTDi.
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tristessa
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Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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I shortened the DS Fox bracket & put the mount closer-in near the block, which gave decent space for the exhaust. I'm also using the toilet bowl manifold (left over from my Scirocco) connected to a Volvo 240 turbo wagon muffler with some bends from the muffler shop scrap bin.  Low-budget (no budget) but quiet and no cracks .. yet. |
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Captain Pike
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Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3336
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Toilet bowl
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59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
.....................All Current....................... |
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