Did you reseal your second gear brake band cover?

[IdahoDoug]

I'm having trouble with second gear after doing this. I had to place enormous pressure on the cover to get it in for the circlip. I know people speak of how difficult this is to press on, but I'm curious if I could get some input here. If you have done this, please describe what it took to get yours compressed.

Mine took using a 6 foot lever and careful jiggling at the very end to ensure this very precise fit cover went in straight. But the force to do this was insane and I can't see how others have done this with the trans in the van. Mine was out and I still struggled. I had the adjuster screw loose, and the valve body out to confirm all looked normal.

So, please describe how you got your cover back on if you would. It would help me greatly to understand if something was amiss when I assembled. Thanks in advance.
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[Terry Kay]

It is a bitch to get the cover back on--
I wiped the cover down wet with ATF, backed off the rod adjuster so it was loose, and pushed the cover in the trans case.

If you didn't back off of the adjuster enough , it ain't gonna go, or you could have very well bent the rod, or the pawl mounts on the band when you forced it in.
_________________
T.K.

[IdahoDoug]

Describe what you had to do here. Were you using your bare hands? And was the trans in the van or on the bench? I had the adjuster backed fully off.
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[kourt]

I used the classic welder's clamp solution.

As seen in this post:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6503112#6503112

Using this method I was able to get the cover on/off about ten times without any struggle. I screwed it up a few times with a less elegant method... and then I bought the clamp and all was golden.

kourt

[Terry Kay]

I used a C-clamp, you lose too much leverage with the extended jaw vice grips.

Screw the cover in.

I did it in the van, the o-rings were leaking on the cover.
_________________
T.K.

[danfromsyr]

fwiw, adding to the topic but not your immediate issue.
we had to do it in the vehicle. and used a bar clamp with the jaws reversed to push off the frame and seat the piston & cover.

_________________

[Terry Kay]

You lose a bunch of mechanical advantage with them adjustable sliding clamps.
They are great for woodworking, when needing a good push or pull or clamp on anything else, they won't perform quite as well.
_________________
T.K.

[kourt]

[IdahoDoug]

My counterfeit vice grips did not provide the power to push the cover home. At about a half inch from home, the resistance got crazy - as if something extra was under the spring and the spring was maximally compressed.

Any other input before I open this thing up again? Really looking for people to express how much force they had to place on it and the vice grips you are discussing only move the jaw tips a quarter inch or so. Even with real vice grips, the cover has so much resistance that I can't by hand get it to with 1/4" of home such that they would finish it. Make sense? Input?

Doug
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[?Waldo?]

Doug, I've never done it myself, but from the other responses here it seems obvious that yours required an abnormal amount of force.

[Terry Kay]

The factory tool to compress the spring under that cover is about 2' long.
It takes a lot to get it down to get that clip on the cover.
The cover is no way, shape or form "Just" going back into that hole & the clip back into that groove all by itself.

You didn't make a mental note of what a bitch it was to get it outa the side of that trans?

Why you're having shifting issues, I have no idea.

You don't have much for a tool selection, nows a good time to get a couple of sets of good long vice grips, or Wilton C-clamps to get the cover outa there without screwing something else up.

Your running on 1 cylinder with the tools you have, and want / demand all 4 .
What do you expect Doug?

Here's a good one--how the hell did you get it outa there the first time?
How that ever that happened, repeat that process.

You have something assembled wrong, something broke in assembly, and perhaps the adjustment is too tight to allow you to put the cover back on.
You are there doing the work, analize the situation and fix it.
_________________
T.K.

[djkeev]

Doug, before you go nuts over this, you have a spare auto trans still..... Right?

Mount it up on your engine stand, pull the pan and take a good look at how everything is sitting in there right now. Pull the Valve body and take some photos.

Now, compress that band cover and see what force you are dealing with, granted, they are corroded and such. Remove it, clean it up and reinstall.

How was it in comparison?

Decide what to do with this new knowledge.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[Terry Kay]

From dealing with this crazy cover & seals, I can tell you it takes more than you would think to get that cover down far enough to get the clip in place.
More than your thumb & index finger.

The adjustment must be loose, very loose.
But not loose enough to run the rod outa the band pawls.

Then get a c-clamp,long vice grips, Farm Jack, whatever to run it into the trans.

Clean the cover (with the o-rings off)
and the bore squeaky clean, lube it up good with trans fluid.

How'd you get it back in the last time?
I'd like to get a grip on this one.
_________________
T.K.

[kourt]

Jogging my memory here...

This is probably a dead end, but:

Check the circlip on the piston rod--make sure it is still seated. Some models don't use a circlip but are instead riveted to the inner cover. Tell us which version you have. If you mixed parts between transmissions, you might have a problem--there are slight differences between early 80s and late 80s automatics in the piston design.

kourt

[timvw7476]

That end cap needed persuasion from a three foot wrecking bar & wood
blocks to properly seat, last time I was dumb enough to swap O-rings with
the transaxle in place. : (

[Terry Kay]

Changing it in the van is no problem as long as you have the correct tools to accomplish this.

What I wanna know is why it won't go back in.
Kourt--- Doug had it assembled long enough to know it wouldn't shift right.
Why not now?
If he has the plunger rod tweaked now, in the band pawl , maybe it isn't sliding on the one band end .

Not sure, I'm not there.
He'll come up with some kind of eurika, find out what's wrong.
_________________
T.K.

[kourt]

At this point I would be interested in breaking down the parts of the piston and attempting the installation with only certain parts in place. I'm sure you have consulted Bentley 38.24 for order of parts assembly. Something must be sitting proud in the piston assembly.

kourt

[IdahoDoug]

Wow, it's been a crazy busy day and I'm really appreciative of you guys checking in. Thanks.

So I like Dave's thought about my spare trans. I like Terry's suggestion to get more tools. I like Tim checking in that his was also a bitch to get in - meaningful because I am concerned that something was amiss. Yet its such a simple thing to assemble that I could not see that happening. It's literally a piston in a bore with two lipped seals, and a spring atop the piston that compresses grudgingly against the cover. The other end of the piston is merely a rod that fits into a stamped pocket. You really can't mess it up IMO.

And Kourt, mine is the newer style piston that is permanently one assembly - no circlip. Thanks for tuning in.

So, here's a stream of consciousness dump that may answer some questions. When I had difficulty getting the cover on, I did what most of you would. I pulled the cover, removed the spring, then put the cover on without fighting the spring. Fit like a glove. Then I pulled the piston out, checked for any seal issues (flipped lip, etc). All fine. The piston slides up and down fine in the bore and I could look in the open area with the valve body out and see the the rod properly thumping right into the pocket. All looked fine, so I moved the trans out to the driveway and used a 6 foot pipe and the LandCruiser's trailer hitch to create massive force to put it in. As it got to the last mm, the cover wants to bind so I kept lifting and then slightly moving a wood block then remashing until I got a nice almost fit. Then used a brass hammer tapping all around like you might when inserting an oil seal with a brass drift and got it home while my son stayed on the long pipe. When it reached the circlip groove, I easily put that in, we released pressure and I again gently tapped it in case it was slightly bound to help it come up uniformly against the circlip. Seemed fine and I bet most of you would have felt similarly satisfied.

Then a variable that I alluded to earlier. I was meticulous with the adjuster screw that is on the side of the trans (allen screw with locknut) which you now screw in to retension the spring that has the pockets (piston's rod in one, this adjuster in the opposite end pushing against each other). I bought an inch/lb torque wrench for this project. While tensioning it, I was frustrated that the adjuster screw would not remain solidly in its pocket on the brake band. It starts fine but as you screw it in, the spring walks away a bit and the screw is not in the pockets center. I tried several times, even using a hose hook to pull as hard as I could on the pocket to keep it from sneaking away. I barely made a difference and I was afraid I would snap the tip off the tool. So I chalked it up to normal and just figured it must pop into the pocket when the assembly cycles. So, I have a nagging doubt on this and I will tell you what I find when I drop the pan and the valve body. I noted that the Bentley says the trans "must be horizontal for this adjuster process or the brake bands may jam". Mine was vertical and I was aware of this and figured pulling on the brake band would prevent any gravity-induced binding. So, that is explanation of the variable I may have created an issue with. Happily, I can simply let off the adjuster, then readjust since the trans is now horizontal in the frame. So, it will take 10 minutes to do that, then go for a drive and see if that's the problem.

Sorry about the bandwidth. Now I have two questions, the answering of either will dramatically narrow down my task:

1) Would a maladjusted 2nd gear brake band cause this behavior - skipping 2nd gear?
2) Would a maladjusted new throttle cable cause this behavior - skipping 2nd gear?

If anyone can say that #2 would not happen, I can focus on #1 and do the final cable/shifter adjustment at the end. If anyone can say #1 would not happen, I am hosed! Heh.

Doug
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[IdahoDoug]

Any last minute folks want to chime in on their experience getting this cover back on? This evening, I think my wifey is going to go to dinner with friends. She was worried I would miss her company on a Saturday evening. I'm blessed immeasurably in the wife department, but I had to consciously NOT let my eyes glance garage-ward when I let her know my son and I would find something to do....

So, thoughts? I'm going to try first releasing the 2nd brake band adjuster, then readjusting with the trans properly horizontal. Then take it for a drive. If no love, I'll be wishing for Samba input on the two questions above because if the throttle cable could be the issue (question 1), I would focus on that (possible waste of time). If the brake band piston sticking CANNOT cause my symptoms (Question 2), then I will simply drop the pan and look for some amateur mistake like flipping that little plastic cup thingy, or not engaging that little 90 degree rod in the valve body, etc.

So, help! Thanks......
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[djkeev]

Sorry Doug...... I got nuttin'! 🤔

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert