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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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 Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:05 am Post subject: |
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it happens... 
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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MinamiKotaro
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2008
Posts: 1039
Location: Somewhere in TN
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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I must apologize for my responses in this thread. I was having a bad week and it boiled over here for no particular reason.
I was also mistaken. Dad's 2110 used OEM 8mm studs until they kept stretching and he finally pulled a couple. He then put helicoils in the block and went to the chromoly 8mm studs.
My new turbo engine will be the first engine he's built with 10mm studs.
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| MinamiKotaro wrote: |
| No attitude, eh? I stated our results with 8mm vs. 10mm. Rather than respond in any way, you made fun of me. That's attitude, and I doubt you'd have the balls to act like that face-to-face. |
no offense intended, dude, *but*(yeah, I know) internet muscles are much worse than any "attitude" that comes from someone replying to a thread...In fact, internet muscles are simply "attitude" in disguise...
that said, some folks are pumping unGodly amounts of boost through engines with 8MM studs and have for years... But I also think you should use what you feel comfortable with, not necessarily what someone else thinks will work for you, even if they are more experienced...
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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Bajaman65
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 469
Location: Borrego Springs
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
One time, back in the early 80's (when I was much younger) I had some rain water leak into one of my 48 Dellortos.... 12.5 to 1 compression dry-sumped 2180.
When I went to crank the engine, I knew there was a problem. Pulled the engine, tore it down... Checked every thing, and replaced the headstuds on one side.
The 8mm studs had "stretched" and saved my ass.
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I had about the same thing happen, 2387 10 to 1 with water in #1 cyl when the engine fired once and BANG. My 8mm studs stretched about .05 and the wrist pin on #1 bent .002". New bearing, studs and a set of pistons and I was away and running. I have never had a failure with good 8mm studs |
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MinamiKotaro
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2008
Posts: 1039
Location: Somewhere in TN
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Type 5 Joe wrote: |
No attitude...
Maybe you need to read the original post.
This is not a Turbo thread. |
No attitude, eh? I stated our results with 8mm vs. 10mm. Rather than respond in any way, you made fun of me. That's attitude, and I doubt you'd have the balls to act like that face-to-face.
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bdkw1
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2008
Posts: 798
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew wrote: |
| I'd bet that the cromoly studs don't expand with the engine the way the genuine VW 8mm studs do and that's why the 2110 pulled studs. If they are pulling out of the block it's not because the studs are weak. |
The difference expansion rates between chromoly and the stock head stud material is so small I highly doubt you would ever be able to measure it. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:01 am Post subject: |
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If you needed 10mm headstuds "to prevent problems" in a car that ran 13s you should fix your ignition timing, of which you have WAY too much of. You don't even NEED 10mm headstuds until 9s, or MAYBE low 10s.
| MinamiKotaro wrote: |
You can can your attitude. 8mm studs did not work for us. 10mm studs did.
| Quote: |
| I'd bet that the cromoly studs don't expand with the engine the way the genuine VW 8mm studs do and that's why the 2110 pulled studs. If they are pulling out of the block it's not because the studs are weak. |
The 8mm studs had stretched and been retorqued several times before they pulled. He was seeing signs of lifting heads. 10mm studs, no more problems.
10mm are stronger. Some people can benefit from them. |
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Type 5 Joe
Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003
Posts: 1795
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:28 am Post subject: |
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No attitude...
Maybe you need to read the original post.
This is not a Turbo thread.
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MinamiKotaro
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2008
Posts: 1039
Location: Somewhere in TN
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Type 5 Joe wrote: |
Yes, use a sledgehammer if a hammer won't work....
If that doesn't do it, you can rent an industrial air compressor and a jack-hammer. I hear that they are considered "High Quality", not the "cheap stuff". |
You can can your attitude. 8mm studs did not work for us. 10mm studs did.
| Quote: |
| I'd bet that the cromoly studs don't expand with the engine the way the genuine VW 8mm studs do and that's why the 2110 pulled studs. If they are pulling out of the block it's not because the studs are weak. |
The 8mm studs had stretched and been retorqued several times before they pulled. He was seeing signs of lifting heads. 10mm studs, no more problems.
10mm are stronger. Some people can benefit from them.
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Type 5 Joe
Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003
Posts: 1795
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Yes, use a sledgehammer if a hammer won't work....
If that doesn't do it, you can rent an industrial air compressor and a jack-hammer. I hear that they are considered "High Quality", not the "cheap stuff".
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Matthew
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2004
Posts: 1760
Location: Eastern Tennessee
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew wrote: |
| The 10mm studs have a nasty habit of pulling out of the case. VW engineers solved that problem by going with the 8mm studs which can grow with the engine as it expands |
| MinamiKotaro wrote: |
Dad's 2110 pulled a couple of 8mm studs. These were high-quality chromoly studs, not cheap stuff. He put 10mm studs in and never had a problem from then on. Wasn't even that hot of an engine.
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I'd bet that the cromoly studs don't expand with the engine the way the genuine VW 8mm studs do and that's why the 2110 pulled studs. If they are pulling out of the block it's not because the studs are weak.
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MinamiKotaro
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Joined: July 18, 2008
Posts: 1039
Location: Somewhere in TN
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew wrote: |
| The 10mm studs have a nasty habit of pulling out of the case. VW engineers solved that problem by going with the 8mm studs which can grow with the engine as it expands. |
Dad's 2110 pulled a couple of 8mm studs. These were high-quality chromoly studs, not cheap stuff. He put 10mm studs in and never had a problem from then on. Wasn't even that hot of an engine.
Throw 20+ psi of boost into the mix and I wouldn't trust 8mm studs at all. My 8mm studs were showing signs of stretch and I hadn't made that many passes. The oddball 9mm studs we found to replace them lasted a long time but they were getting stretched, too. My next engine will have 10mm studs.
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Matthew
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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The 10mm studs have a nasty habit of pulling out of the case. VW engineers solved that problem by going with the 8mm studs which can grow with the engine as it expands.
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MinamiKotaro
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Joined: July 18, 2008
Posts: 1039
Location: Somewhere in TN
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Sigurd wrote: |
| I had a dickens of a time clearancing my Mahle 94s for 9mm studs. I can't imagine hogging them out for 10s. |
It's a pain in the ass.
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Sigurd
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Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:47 am Post subject: |
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I had a dickens of a time clearancing my Mahle 94s for 8mm studs. I can't imagine hogging them out for 10s.
Last edited by Sigurd on Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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donmurray
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Joined: December 30, 2008
Posts: 841
Location: Frisco Texas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:48 am Post subject: |
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There's an argument that the correct size bolt or stud will stretch when the correct torque is applied. The stretch keeps the parts in compression and maintains a more constant torque when the parts (cylinder & head) expand under heat. A bigger bolt or one made with different material might not stretch as much as needed. Could put too much load on the threads (or parts) as the parts expand.
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Alan_U
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Joined: July 10, 2004
Posts: 1762
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:55 am Post subject: |
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For your application I'd say 8mm and call it a day. Case savers with 8mm will work absolutely fine. 10mm gets tighter in fitment (not a big deal) however the 8mm has more ease of assembly.
I have used bugpack 8mm on my 2332 and no cutting was required. With the same studs I've ran 11.90's-12.00's for years (many of those years using the car as a fair weather pumpgas daily driver).
Your current case should have case savers for 8mm studs. I'd keep things simple since it doesn't sound like your not building a turbo.
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Type 5 Joe
Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003
Posts: 1795
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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As VW progressed in their development of the Type I engine, they changed from 10 to 8mm headstuds.
The horsepower ratings, and heavier loads to push were increasing during this era also.
VW figured out that better engine case alloys and smaller high quality studs combined with case savers (eventually), reacted better and was more reliable than the old Ideas.
I always use 8mm (genuine original VW) studs and never have any problems.
One time, back in the early 80's (when I was much younger) I had some rain water leak into one of my 48 Dellortos.... 12.5 to 1 compression dry-sumped 2180.
When I went to crank the engine, I knew there was a problem. Pulled the engine, tore it down... Checked every thing, and replaced the headstuds on one side.
The 8mm studs had "stretched" and saved my ass.
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| LeviMan2001 wrote: |
| jfats808 wrote: |
| I always prefer to use 8mm head studs on my engines. |
I am curious to know the reasons behind that  That seems to make absolutely no sense to me. |
because when you are talking about stock cases, it's because they not only work, but have factory case savers... the 10mm cases did not have case savers...
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| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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LeviMan2001
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| jfats808 wrote: |
| I always prefer to use 8mm head studs on my engines. |
I am curious to know the reasons behind that That seems to make absolutely no sense to me.
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