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Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added)
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asiab3
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

WhirledTraveller wrote:
Smurf wrote:


This method might have worked for you but for me this was the worst method. This is what caused my bolts to get cross threaded.


Sorry this happened to you but I don't think the technique is to blame. Done correctly the bolts can be started by hand without any load on them and you should be able to tell that they are started correctly and not cross-threaded.

Not to sound high and mighty though, I've cross-threaded bolts aplenty. Sucks.


Yes, been there done that, (my lovely PO tapped my bumper bolt holes for standard threads uuughhhh) so I know the "feeling" in Volkswagen/Kamex bolts is usually always right. I trust these machines more than I trust people to tell me what is ailing them.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

cdennisg wrote:
Smurf wrote:
This is what caused my bolts to get cross threaded.


No, cross-threading the bolts and continuing to crank down on them caused your problems. Sorry you had these issues, but others have done this job many times without ruining the bolts or the hole threads.


Don't mean to disrespectful but this method did not work for me. There are more simple methods than cranking down on a torsion cover without a bushing to achieve what you're trying to do which is getting the spring plate over the stop.

That is an extreme amount of pressure for those bolts to handle.

You find this easy to do it this way and I find it easy to do another way. Blaming me for my practice over yours isn't solving anything and it counter productive to not only me but others who are doing this job.

Find a method that works for you is all I'm trying to say.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

Smurf wrote:
cdennisg wrote:
Smurf wrote:
This is what caused my bolts to get cross threaded.


No, cross-threading the bolts and continuing to crank down on them caused your problems. Sorry you had these issues, but others have done this job many times without ruining the bolts or the hole threads.


Don't mean to disrespectful but this method did not work for me. There are more simple methods than cranking down on a torsion cover without a bushing to achieve what you're trying to do which is getting the spring plate over the stop.

That is an extreme amount of pressure for those bolts to handle.

You find this easy to do it this way and I find it easy to do another way. Blaming me for my practice over yours isn't solving anything and it counter productive to not only me but others who are doing this job.

Find a method that works for you is all I'm trying to say.


You misunderstood what I said. the method didn't cause your bolts to get cross-threaded. Starting the bolts incorrectly and continuing to force them into place caused that. It has happened to all of us at times. Just gotta be careful.

We are all glad that you finally were able to solve the issue.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: VW factory installed the lighter duty torsion bars Reply with quote

patayres wrote:
Interesting development today: I think my Westfalia left the VW factory in Hanover with the lighter duty torsion bars. The undercarriage still has the dealer undercoating including the spring plate cover. The paint underneath the undercoating is perfect... I'm pretty sure that the spring plate covers have never been off. Not to mention the state of the doughnut bushings - old, ovaled, and with the VW emblem and part #.

Here is the right torsion bar:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Think Think Think Think


I am in the process of replacing my torsion bushings and had planned to install adjustable spring plates as well, however, the spring plates that I rec'd were too big for my torsion bars, which are also 26.90mm diameter (edited: actually, after removing them they measured 26.29mm so assume they are the 26.20mm spec). Clearly the spring plate maker assumed that my bars were the larger ones as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

Going thru this process now on my 77 Westy and this thread has been extremely helpful.. My M14 bolts that hold the bearing hub to the spring plate/trailing arm did not fair well when removed. I just measured mine and contrary to an earlier post my short ones are 35mm in length, not 28mm. They just barely protruded from the assembly when installed so a shorter bolt will not work. Just wanted to post it up in case it helps some other poor sole with buggered threads. These are M14 x 1.5 (fine thread) grade 10.9.
Short bolt is 35mm and long one is 95mm. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1589782.jpg
I found replacements (35 and 100mm, 10.9 grade) and matching tap at Belmetric.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

WhirledTraveller wrote:
Smurf wrote:


This method might have worked for you but for me this was the worst method. This is what caused my bolts to get cross threaded.


Sorry this happened to you but I don't think the technique is to blame. Done correctly the bolts can be started by hand without any load on them and you should be able to tell that they are started correctly and not cross-threaded.

Not to sound high and mighty though, I've cross-threaded bolts aplenty. Sucks.


A technique to save your sorry-ass cross-stripping disaster is to quit trying as soon as you know it is screwed up. Disassemble.
Start a well-greased "mule" bolt from the other direction, under the car, and run it in until it is protruding from the hole. Then, start one of your final bolts from the outside without the cover plate in the way, and work it until the bolt and the hole understand each other.
(this technique has worked especially well for some of the cross-threaded disasters in relay arms when replacing center pin bushings)

Upon reassembly, do NOT press the cover plate fully onto the bushing, just let it loosely hang and get one bolt started, just one. Bottle jack the wheel bearing housing up just enough to unload the spring plate from the stop a barely at all. Then get your mighty visegrips to pull the opposite side of the cover in close enough to start another bolt. The alignment will be off. Now get you brake adjusting spoon or other prying implement to pry the cover slightly up or down to line up the holes. My easiest installation seems to be upper forward/lower rear/lower front/upper rear.
With these new bushings seemingly smaller the factory originals, I have not had to fight these covers for fifteen years now.
Colin

this bushing is beginning to show signs of wear:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

Amskeptic wrote:

this bushing is beginning to show signs of wear:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Who supplies the best bushings in your opinion?



.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:


Who supplies the best bushings in your opinion?


I barely tolerate in-house Wolfsburg West replacements, and tell myself that I am lucky I can even get them at ALL.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

Will old bushings cause the rear suspension to sound creaky/squeaky when the Bus is loaded?

I had forgotten about having not heard it since the summer, but in the '73 when it is full of people the rear suspension gets noisy. The shocks are only a year or two old, so I doubt that is the issue.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

vwwestyman wrote:
Will old bushings cause the rear suspension to sound creaky/squeaky when the Bus is loaded?

I had forgotten about having not heard it since the summer, but in the '73 when it is full of people the rear suspension gets noisy. The shocks are only a year or two old, so I doubt that is the issue.


If your spring plate bushings are original, then they are wasted and should be replaced. Yes, they will make all sorts of racket especially if they are worn through like the pics above.

You need to also look at the rear lower control arm that connects to the bearing housing. It has a bushing in there as well. Most of the time, that bushing is ok though.

You could load the bus and have folks move up and down while it's parked in the driveway try to identify where the noise is coming from too. My guess would be the spring plate bushings.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

originals still come up packed in that spray stuff that protects them. They may be harder to work with but think of them more like poly when they get harder. Smile Use lots of real talc when installing them.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
originals still come up packed in that spray stuff that protects them. They may be harder to work with but think of them more like poly when they get harder. Smile Use lots of real talc when installing them.


Are you saying that the VW dealer parts network still can get the bushing or who?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
SGKent wrote:
originals still come up packed in that spray stuff that protects them. They may be harder to work with but think of them more like poly when they get harder. Smile Use lots of real talc when installing them.


Are you saying that the VW dealer parts network still can get the bushing or who?


no - gotta watch for them in classifieds and in Europe on Ebay etc. Be sure they are in the factory box. The part also fits splits so lots were made sold in both blue box and white audi box 211 511 245 A. FWIW Some folks still list them as genuine VW so they may be available thru VW Heritage, Paruzzi etc. This is the torsion bushing. The "rear"arm bushing 211 501 121 is still available if one watches for them too. Most retail sites show repops though on those. NOS still come up.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

Finished this job a couple weeks ago (had some unexpected delays) and thought I would add some of my experiences. I used bushings from BugHaus - they had FAG bearings so I figured I'd give their bushings a shot while I was ordering. Here's the side to side comparison of the 2 drivers side old ones and vs 2 new ones. They seemed like good quality to me.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I dove into this job because of an annoying squeak from my rear end. My bushings were in pretty good shape compared to some but I found the source when I pulled the driver's side bushing cover:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As far as removing the spring plates, I had no luck just prying the spring plates out. I saw old posts and youtube videos that made it look easy and even saw one post that said to "gently pry" them out. Mine were in there good. I ended up using my biggest cold chisel and a 12" pry bar as a wedges from different angles and banged them behind the spring plate to get it started. Once it moved a little then the gently prying came into play. I did scratch the paint a little doing this so I cleaned up the area and hit it with clear coat to keep the rust at bay.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


On installing the torsion cover plates - I went with the no outer bushing technique and used the cover plate to push in the spring plate and inner bushing - worked great - just gotta keep it all in the same plane. Once the spring plate was near home I pulled the cover and installed the outer bushing. I tightened the cover bolts in a cross pattern a little at a time to keep things straight.

And a pic of the completed rear end. Can't wait to drive! Waiting on a replacement drum - one of mine chipped a rim in delivery. ts always something.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last edited by kevin77westy on Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

kevin77westy wrote:
Going thru this process now on my 77 Westy and this thread has been extremely helpful.. My M14 bolts that hold the bearing hub to the spring plate/trailing arm did not fair well when removed. I just measured mine and contrary to an earlier post my short ones are 35mm in length, not 28mm. They just barely protruded from the assembly when installed so a shorter bolt will not work. Just wanted to post it up in case it helps some other poor sole with buggered threads. These are M14 x 1.5 (fine thread) grade 10.9.
Short bolt is 35mm and long one is 95mm. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1589782.jpg
I found replacements (35 and 100mm, 10.9 grade) and matching tap at Belmetric.

Also wanted to update this post. When removed my hub bolts they had no washers. I had a hard time figuring out which washers were correct (some reading indicated they might be spring washers) but I ended up with10.9 grade flat washers which were pretty thick. The 100mm bolts handled these washers fine but they were too thick for the 35mm bolts (was a couple threads short of coming thru the hub holes) so I did not use washers on those - I needed 40mm. Might replace them but not too worried about it. 95ft/lbs is pretty good torque and they never came loose before.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

I sure had a frustrating morning and afternoon. I have read this is a 2-3 hour job. Well i spent 7 hours on one side... that included a few trips to the store.

So I am lifting the rear to go along with my bigger tires and fix the saggin rear.

I pulled it all apart and the bushing looked in decent shape so I didnt plan on changing them. My original angle was 23* after compensating for the angle in the driveway. I regeared to have an angle of 30*

Heres the issue i have. I cant get the arm back far enough to stay on the stop. I did get it on once, but the hub would not bolt on, as the arm wasnt pushed in far enough onto the inside of the bus.

The method i have been using to put it on is pushing the index bar in all the way so that the bar is fully on on the inner splines, then put on the plate and put on 3 screws. Then jack it up to be above the stop bump. Then tighen the 4 bolts on the plate in and it will push it on, but not push it on enough. When the jack is let down, it slides off the bump.

I have tried messing around with the jack, sliding it all around. Hitting the arm with a 4lb mini sledge, hitting a block of wood on the splines. Lots of Johnson & Johnson baby talc.

Any suggestions?? This is suppose to be an easy job Sad
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

Maybe your old inner bushing is deformed and will not let it get where it needs to be?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

Try bolting on the hub and torque arm,the arm should hold the spring plate inward and prevent it from slipping off the stop.
You may need to use longer,smaller bolts with nuts and washers to get the torque arm to line up on the hub,use 2 of them where the vw nuts and bolts go,[a good clamp may also work]when it's lined up install and tighten the 2 short bolts that screw into the hub.
GoodLuck,have fun;Nelson.
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Last edited by lil-jinx on Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

lil-jinx wrote:
Try bolting on the hub and torque arm,the arm should hold the spring plate inward and prevent it from slipping off the stop.
GoodLuck,have fun;Nelson.


For this, The CV joint would have to be taken off, which is fine... but the issue would be to get it all together with the arm on the jack. it wouldnt be able to match up
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) Reply with quote

Had to run to the garage and have a look,use a c-clamp to clamp the spring arm in so it can't slip off.
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