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MikeSoCal Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 47 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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I have a question. After completing this project, I am stuck on the very last part. The rear torsion covers, the holes do not line up with the 4 bolt holes as if the outer bushing is too large and making it off centered. If I try to fit the cover without the rubber bushing I can get the holes to line up. I'm off a good 1/4 inch and even if I get one bolt started, I cannot slide or pound on the cover with the bushing. Any suggesstions? Thanks! _________________ Restoring a 1971 VW Westfalia |
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20230 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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New rubber bushings? Using plenty of talc?
Sometimes a couple of longer bolts to get things started will make it easier. As you tighten them down, you can install the stock bolts on opposite holes and keep snugging things down until all four stock length bolts can be installed. Slow, steady, incremental movements will get you there. _________________ nothing |
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MikeSoCal Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 47 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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Yes, they are new bushings and even if I try the old bushings, the holes still don't line up. Using Talc. I will try longer bolts, that should do it. Thanks so much. _________________ Restoring a 1971 VW Westfalia |
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Rhodrich Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2001 Posts: 130 Location: London, UK
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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I'm about to tackle this job at the weekend, to undo the lowering job that a previous owner has done. My Haynes manual says to use flake graphite to lubricate the rubber bushings, but this thread says to use talc. I was wondering which would be better?
Thanks.
Also, I downloaded a free app for my phone called 'Spirit Level'. Uses the phone's built in inclinometer, and does exactly the same job that these fancy protractors do, with the added benefit that you can 'zero' it at the angle that the van is at - no worrying about needing to have the van level, or having to manually add or subtract the right amount of degrees to get to the correct reading. Genius! |
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20230 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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Use talc. It works perfectly.
The phone angle app is pretty cool, a coworker of mine uses his for all sorts of things. _________________ nothing |
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remo032 Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2018 Posts: 11 Location: Wisconsin
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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Please Help I'm at my wits end. I can't get my spring plate off. I have read this entire post, My Bently, and my Hanes manual. I have a 73 Westy. I am removing the torsion bar so that I can repair some sever rust damage to the frame and lower part of the torsion beam where it goes through the frame. I have pryed the spring plate over the stop but it wont go down any further than what's pictured even after beating the spring plate down with a hammer it just springs back up to where it is. I've tried prying it off the splines and even modified a puller as shown, right now I have about 50 foot pounds on the puller and it wont budge. I have also been shooting PB Blaster into the splines. I have been working on the spring plate for about 3 days now and finally decided to reach out for help. Please does anybody have any suggestions?
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20230 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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Once the spring plate is past that lower stop, there is no point in trying to pry it any direction but straight out towards you. Your puller is doing things in the exact correct direction.
You may need a larger puller, or to add heat to the outer portion of the spring plate that contains the splines. The idea is to get the heat to expand the outer part of the spline intersection with the torsion bar, with as little heat as possible going into the torsion bar itself (don't want it to expand). This will hopefully allow the splines that are stuck together to let loose. If you can keep that puller installed while heating things up, and tapping that outer area of the splines with a hammer, it may just pop loose. Wear gloves and eye protection, and be careful. Keep a fire-putter-outer handy, too.
Working on cars from the rust belt can be a huge pain in the ass. Sometimes you have to go full caveman and use a torch/hammer/grinder/cutting tools to make things happen. _________________ nothing |
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Amskeptic Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002 Posts: 8568 Location: All Across The Country
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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remo032 wrote: |
Please Help I'm at my wits end. I have pryed the spring plate over the stop but it wont go down any further than what's pictured even after beating the spring plate down with a hammer it just springs back up to where it is. |
Stop trying to pull the spring plate off the torsion bar.
Remove both as a unit. The grease inside the tube at the center will release the torsion bar with less effort.
Colin _________________ www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20230 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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Amskeptic wrote: |
remo032 wrote: |
Please Help I'm at my wits end. I have pryed the spring plate over the stop but it wont go down any further than what's pictured even after beating the spring plate down with a hammer it just springs back up to where it is. |
Stop trying to pull the spring plate off the torsion bar.
Remove both as a unit. The grease inside the tube at the center will release the torsion bar with less effort.
Colin |
I have had the outer end slide off easily and not been able to pull the bar out of the inner end with any amount of force or coercion. Every situation is different.
If he has been prying on the spring plate in an attempt to pull the thing from the outer torsion bar, it would have already slipped off the inner section by now (if it could), or maybe it has and he is worried that is wrong. _________________ nothing |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13382 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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Too me, it doesn't look like he's unloaded the tension off the torsion bar. The spring plate appears to still be resting on the ledge. If the plate is still under tension, it's going to be a bugger to get it off the bar.
I'd get a BIG pry bar and see if I could get the plate off the ledge which will unload the tension. CAUTION, the plate will drop quick with force and hurt anything under it. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
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**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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remo032 Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2018 Posts: 11 Location: Wisconsin
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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Thanks for all the advice it is over the lower stop I was able to get it to drop down another 1/8 of an inch lower than where it shows in the picture by pounding the back of the spring plate down with a hammer. I have tried getting the torsion bar to release from the inner splines also but with no luck. If I could get the inner to release I could press it out of the spring plate with the 10 ton hydraulic press that I can use at work.
I just bought an Oxy / Acetylene torch yesterday figured I would practice with it first on my lower shock bolt since that is stuck also (It has probably been about 20 years since the last time I had to use one) It worked but took a lot of heat and a 4 pound sledge to pound it out while clamped in a vice.
Tonight I just heated the spring plate with the torch while the puller was installed by the way I have the puller cranked down with 75 foot lbs. (on the puller nut) I did hear it making small cracking sounds as it cooled but no luck yet. Would it be ok to spray PB Blaster on the splines while it was still warm (not hot) or would that cause rapid cooling and shrink the metal making it worse? |
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20230 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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Shocking that rusted joint during the heat/cool process will not hurt anything, and may help. Don't breathe the fumes if can help it. Never really know what's in that stuff.
keep trying, you'll get it. slow and steady wins the race. The heat and cool cycles are what will make that joint let loose eventually.
To the others, if you have never worked on a rust belt car, this is the kind of stuff that makes you not want to work on a rust belt car. _________________ nothing |
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Amskeptic Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002 Posts: 8568 Location: All Across The Country
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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remo032 wrote: |
I just bought an Oxy / Acetylene torch yesterday figured I would practice with it first on my lower shock bolt since that is stuck also
Tonight I just heated the spring plate with the torch while the puller was installed by the way I have the puller cranked down with 75 foot lbs. (on the puller nut) I did hear it making small cracking sounds as it cooled but no luck yet. Would it be ok to spray PB Blaster on the splines while it was still warm (not hot) or would that cause rapid cooling and shrink the metal making it worse? |
Do not use heat on the torsion bar. Seriously. It will change the spring rate and the left and the right will not be the same,
Colin _________________ www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20230 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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Amskeptic wrote: |
remo032 wrote: |
I just bought an Oxy / Acetylene torch yesterday figured I would practice with it first on my lower shock bolt since that is stuck also
Tonight I just heated the spring plate with the torch while the puller was installed by the way I have the puller cranked down with 75 foot lbs. (on the puller nut) I did hear it making small cracking sounds as it cooled but no luck yet. Would it be ok to spray PB Blaster on the splines while it was still warm (not hot) or would that cause rapid cooling and shrink the metal making it worse? |
Do not use heat on the torsion bar. Seriously. It will change the spring rate and the left and the right will not be the same,
Colin |
He's not heating the torsion bar, at least not enough to change the metallurgy. He is heating the springplate area around the splines to expand them to loosen the rust bond in the splines. _________________ nothing |
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Stuartzickefoose Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008 Posts: 10350 Location: SoCal for now...
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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DOnt spray PB on HOT metal! Flash flame, not fun! _________________ Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
[email protected] |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50254
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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Don't know what the rating is of your pull, but I would bet the bolt will take way more than 75 ft*lbs. Crank the forces up and it will likely pop right off. It can help to lubricate the threads on the puller.
If applying heat just apply it to the swing arm. Apply it over a fairly large arc around the outside of the splines. Apply the heat fast so less gets transferred to the torsion bar. When the splines break free there will be lots of force and the arm may fly off at a high speed so don't have any of your body parts in the way. |
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remo032 Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2018 Posts: 11 Location: Wisconsin
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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Update. I finally got the torsion bar out. After another week of trying and no luck I decided to try the right side torsion bar with the hope of being able to pound it out from the other side. Eureka the right side inner splines came out no problem then I bought a 3' long 1" round brass drift and was able to knock out the left torsion bar with about 5 good solid whacks with a 4 lb sledge hammer. The outer splines were another story I had to take them to work and use that 20 ton hydraulic press to get both of the spring plates off (took about 7000 lbs of pressure before they popped loose). Lots of corrosion on the right side the left wasn't to bad.
Right side
Left side
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20230 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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^^^ I once ran into this same problem on a 59 beetle. Only I could not get either inner spline to move. Ended up using adjustable spring plates to change the rear ride height instead of changing the index.
Good that you got them out. Clean them and lube them well and you will be able to adjust them easily from here on out. _________________ nothing |
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Ride_On Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015 Posts: 385 Location: Ottawa, Canada
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markd89 Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2005 Posts: 657 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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We finished this job last week and I wanted to post my observations..
I had sprayed the bolts with PB blaster as recommended. As my bus' underside is pretty dry (California native), this probably wasn't necessary. Everything came apart without too much effort and the tubes weren't rusty.
In trying to come up with the correct angle, we found that the bar could easily be rotated one spline on the inside end. On the end that goes into the spring plate, it did not want to rotate one spline. It had certain spots where it wanted to do and others where it wouldn't. Has anyone else experienced this? Something we may have needed to do differently.
Ultimately we got the desired angle by rotating the inner end and trying the torsion plate end until we eventually got to what we wanted.
We ended up at 24.1* as measured by smartphone app. My bus has larger rear tires which compensates for some saggy butt. It also has a heavier engine which offsets that somewhat. Replacing the bushings and 24.1* gave maybe 1/2" lift and it's no longer sitting on the bump stops.
If my tires were the same size, I think I'd need 25* or more. _________________ 78 TDI Sunroof Bus
Los Angeles |
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