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I can haz Big Brakes...FINALLY!!! (with pics)
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Dingchowping
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:18 pm    Post subject: I can haz Big Brakes...FINALLY!!! (with pics) Reply with quote

Hi All,

After months of delays we finally got the adaptor bracket for my Porsche caliper project finalized a couple weeks ago (for some background on this saga, look here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...start=20), and today I managed to finagle some time at work to throw the van on the lift and get them installed.

Here are the brackets:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's the stock rotor on the right, and the stock rotor machined down to a hub on the left:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Stock rotor vs. D2 Audi S8 rotor (Yes...this really does fit behind a 16" wheel!:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Shadowy image of the "hub" and bracket mounted:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Everything mounted up:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Yes...the calipers are black, not red. Rest assured its the same caliper, just a different color. My red Big Reds were rather beat up and tired, and the mounting faces had been modified for another application (Audi B5 S4), so I decided to just get new calipers, and black was $120/caliper cheaper than red. We also turned down a couple hub centering rings to properly locate both the rotor and the spacer on the hub...its a minor detail, but it makes fitting the wheel MUCH easier.

The whole shootin' match behind a 16" wheel:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Its a close fit...I had to relocate some of the wheel weights so they would clear the caliper body. Not all 16" wheels will work. There's a partial list of wheels that work with the System 1 kit on BIRA's website:
http://bira.org/info_main.html
The critical variable appears to be the wheel's drop center. The 16x7.5" E.T. 37mm Avus wheel shown in the pics has its drop center located directly behind the spokes, and with the required 8mm spacer to clear the upper control arm, the leading edge of the drop center clears the widest part of the caliper with plenty of room to spare.

My driving impressions are limited at this point as I've only had a chance to drive the van home from the shop, but the results are very encouraging. Pedal is a bit firmer than stock, despite the original flexy drums in the rear. Bias isn't TOO bad, but I did feel a bit of wiggle in the rear under one particularly aggressive stop, and I wasn't close to locking up the fronts. Additionally, at the end of the drive the drums were burning hot while the front calipers were barely luke warm! Proof positive that for this system to work its best an upgrade to the rear brakes is required as well. Now that the front brake project is wrapping up its time to start on the rear brake project...hopefully it won't take 10 months as well!

There's still some sorting and refining to do on this project. I'm not at all satisfied with the brake line solution I came up with, so that will be addressed soon.

A special thanks goes out to my friend Alex at Intended Acceleration who was a HUGE help with the engineering and machining processes. His experience and no compromise attention to detail made this project possible.
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240Gordy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

$$$ ?
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SeattleDownhill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um... Oh Hell Yes! I can't wait! new brakes and new wheels... so stoked...
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rs4-380
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

front and back?
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice job.
They should work out well.
The adapters look sweet.

dylan
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purplepeopleeater
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Nice!

when can I expect my kit to arrive? Very Happy
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Dingchowping
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the kudos everyone...this project took a lot more time and effort than anticipated (but what project doesn't?) but it was WELL worth it. The brakes were barely 24 hours old when I had an opportunity to put them to the test. On the freeway going 65, rounding a curve and traffic ahead is at a complete stop. Squeeze down on the brake pedal and put my thigh into it and bring the van to a nice, comfortable stop (well...almost...the drums were screaming bloody murder). Had I still been on stock brakes I think I would have had someone else's rear bumper as a footrest.

@ 240Gordy and SeattleDownhill: Price TBD soon. We're still hashing out the details. I'm not looking to make any money on these parts, just offset our cost for the CAD work and tooling. I should hopefully know tonight or tomorrow.

@ purplepeopleeater: We weren't planning on offering a complete kit, just the bracket with a parts list and install notes to make the install as smooth as possible. But if it makes life easier for the end user we could put together a comprehensive kit. I have no idea at this point how much it would cost though.

I still need to hammer out the brake line issue. I'm going to come up with a way to use the factory Vanagon brake hose as it will give people the option of running the stock or stainless lines while retaining the proper length and fittings. I'll probably end up making my own lines as I want stainless braided hose but I'd like to incorporate the rubber protective sleeves present on the stock parts but MIA on all the aftermarket SS lines I've seen.
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240Gordy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

does the hub need to be that small?

kinda scary don't ya think?
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"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
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1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR
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buildyourown
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

240Gordy wrote:
does the hub need to be that small?

kinda scary don't ya think?


Looks like the same size as the Audi based conversions. Yeah, I was apprehensive. But many others have gone before me on this, including many who stand to be sued into kingdom kong. I figured if there were failure problems, they would have surfaced in the VC and SC kits.
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Dingchowping
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

240Gordy wrote:
does the hub need to be that small?

kinda scary don't ya think?


Yes the diameter of the hub is determined by the inner diameter of the rotor hat. Its the same size diameter wise as a stock Audi hub, but its twice as thick. Not an issue.
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240Gordy
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and I suppose the holes look bigger than they are, being countersunk, and the threaded part is a smaller diameter than what shows at the edge?
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Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR
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Dingchowping
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

240Gordy wrote:
and I suppose the holes look bigger than they are, being countersunk, and the threaded part is a smaller diameter than what shows at the edge?


After we finished machining the rotors we had similar concerns to yours. We broke out the calipers and took some measurements and compared them to a stock Audi hub for a C4 S4/S6 and there's actually MORE material on my hub than the stock unit (a few thousandths...nothing to write home about). Plus the rotor cum hub is much thicker than an OEM hub so there's considerably more thread purchase.
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dingchowping wrote:
240Gordy wrote:
and I suppose the holes look bigger than they are, being countersunk, and the threaded part is a smaller diameter than what shows at the edge?


After we finished machining the rotors we had similar concerns to yours. We broke out the calipers and took some measurements and compared them to a stock Audi hub for a C4 S4/S6 and there's actually MORE material on my hub than the stock unit (a few thousandths...nothing to write home about). Plus the rotor cum hub is much thicker than an OEM hub so there's considerably more thread purchase.


While I have little evidence to support my concerns, the Vanagon hub is cast iron while the AUDI hub is forged steel. BIG difference! And just for the record, I do know a guy who has broken machined-to-fit-a-rotor Vanagon hub, but not an AUDI rotors. His hubs were much thicker between the outer radius of the threaded hole and the outer edge of the hub itself. It broke while he was pressing in a set of press-in studs.

If the hubs are being centered by a set of hubcentric rings, like Adam has done or plans to do, I wouldn't be quite as concerned because the hub snout will be carrying the entire load of the vehicle and the hardware is simply in place to hold the wheel to the hub in one plane, not two.
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Perpel
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:13 pm    Post subject: SC kit vs These Porsche big reds. Reply with quote

Hi All,

Anyone know how much these porsche big red calipers weigh?

Thanks,
R
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SyncroGhia
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big red caliper (without brake pads) weighs 9 lbs or 4.2 KG.

I'm using the same setup on Limey but with 330mmx32mm front discs from a Mercedes, again underneath 16 inch wheels.

How do get around the calipers being designed for 32mm discs and the Audi discs being 314mmx30mm? pad spacers?

MG
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Dobie Dude
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any update on these?
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OhChit
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone have any updates on using the Porsche Big Reds.
I've been wanting to upgrade my Brakes, considered the GoWesty Big Brake kit, and the G60's...
But I had picked up a Nice set of Porsche Big Reds a few years ago and I'm jonesing to install these Babies.

I'm just confused what I need to do to get them mounted up correctly with proper spacers / brackets and what Disc to use.

I'm running Mercedes 16" alloys wheels.

Guess one of my biggest concerns is what Disc works with the Big Reds. Would like to use the Mercedes 5x112 Disc but not sure if the spacing would line up correctly with the brackets needed for the Big Reds?

Any info out there or guys that made it work correctly ?

Anyone have a pair of mounting adapter Brackets that they wish to sell?

Thanks Jon
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Jeff's Old Volks Home
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't worry about the cast vs steel hub material. Unless you're using a cheap off shore rotor to start with (which has inconsistent carbon content and is often way too porous) the material is still much stronger than you need. If the bolt holes split while pressing in wheel studs, then it was sized wrong in the first place. It's still infinitely stronger than many factory set ups I've seen.
Find something else to worry about.
Jeff
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Crankey
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what if you have SA hubs ? do they fit this rotor/hub snout ? I would guess ot as they look like they have a little more meat on the perimeter.
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VanaConn
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any updates? Will need serious front brakes for my Svx vanagon build. Looking for the best option.
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