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'58/'59 Beetle Discussion
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

veedubfreak59 wrote:
Well this thread makes me glad I had no intentions of trying to restore my 59. Still haven't got it home, but now i'm intrigued. I never realized 59 was such a transition year.


For sure, BIG changes were in store for 1960! Almost makes you wonder why they even had a 59 for really nothing of note changed. From 58 throughout the entire run ending in July 1959. Sure, they moved the bonnet knob a few inches and other piddly stuff but it's all very minor.

Dave
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mattpeace
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattpeace wrote:
Unfrotunatally my 59 is a very early 59 so it has the 58 stampings on the clip as well as other 58 only items


What is your date of production?

my car was built sept 58 and had a title stating it as a 59,
also for 58 they stopped stamping the numbers on the bodyhalf way through the year. the brake fluid reservoir area is stamped differently for
58 than for 59
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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you provide a photo of each style, por favor?
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AlteWagen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my59 wrote:
The page of PR under discussion appears to be all about VW pickups- and nothing to do with Type 1's


Rolling Eyes

Did you fail to read the whole thread?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The vin numbers listed in PR for the model year change corresponds with BOTH a type I and type II vin.

Type I vin numbers by month
Oct 2 149 028
Nov 2 186 987

Type II vin numbers by month
Oct 398 980
Nov 407 282


mattpeace wrote:
the brake fluid reservoir area is stamped differently for 58 than for 59


Correct. there are three ribs in 59 where as 58 and earlier have only 2.

58 and earlier

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


59-60

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



As far as side view mirrors, both euro cars Ive owned had the pear shaped one like pictured above while US received the round type.

Correct. there are three ribs in 59 where as 58 and earlier have only 2.
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AlteWagen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Form the transitional bus thread

Lind wrote:
derluftwagen wrote:
hugheseum wrote:
it could......i dont personally put alot of stock in vws literature.....theres too many things that contradict


What kinds of factory literature contradict? Is it the literature vs what an original car actually has or sales brochures vs PR?


sales literature was meant to sell cars, and it was probably designed by ad agencies, not engineers. many of the details on the cars are incorrect, and it is not an acceptable source for restoration. (drawings of a mango bus with a six leg middle seat, or a high hinge bus with later turn signals)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/59largevwbus/cover.jpg
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/62trucks/1.jpg

in owners manuals and service manuals, they would retouch pictures rather than taking new pictures, so there are pictures which show features which never existed from the factory. generally the pictures will be accurate as far as what they are specifically referring to, but no so much on the other details.

PR is generally correct, as are the factory parts lists, but there are easily provable errors in both. (PR lists ghia sun visors as changing from the greenish plastic to the padded type, leaving out the second style of visors) (PR and parts lists both show the adjustable drivers seat on walkthrough buses showing up prior to a bus that I have personally verified to have the early style seat from the factory)

overall, sales literature is the worst, and parts lists/PR are the best.
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mario_0609
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

derluftwagen wrote:

Type I vin numbers by month
Oct 2 149 028
Nov 2 186 987


Well, I am not sure about this. My bug has the 2 135 954 and is stated to be built on 22 October in the birth certificate. Or is the above number the months-ending number?


derluftwagen wrote:

Correct. there are three ribs in 59 where as 58 and earlier have only 2.


Now, I think is is cool information. My, again, 22 October 58 bug has the 2 ribs

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


To me, this is an indicator for the following:
1) I do have a 58 bug, because I am absolutley sure that this part was never replaced.
2) The change from model year 58 to 59 could really have taken place only in November 58. Not in August 58.


derluftwagen wrote:

As far as side view mirrors, both euro cars Ive owned had the pear shaped one like pictured above while US received the round type.

Great info too! So this is really US vs Euro difference.
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AlteWagen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mario_0609 wrote:
derluftwagen wrote:

Type I vin numbers by month
Oct 2 149 028
Nov 2 186 987


Well, I am not sure about this. My bug has the 2 135 954 and is stated to be built on 22 October in the birth certificate. Or is the above number the months-ending number?



Yes the numbers listed are the last vin for the month which would make your vin correct as an october build
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting thread. Only two changes were actually made at the end of July 1958; the new (1959) colors were introduced on 31 July 1958 and the "frame head was reinforced" on 1 August.

I'm guessing the 1 November 1958 "beginning" of the 1959 model year shown in PR was a corporate formality to satisfy a particular export market, other than the U.S., of a model year demarcation.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you browse through the "General Modifications" pages of the PR, both Volume 1 and 2. There are many years with a later year change date, most often in October.

1 Oct. 1959 2 632 801 Start of 1960 Model
1 Oct. 1960 3 335 848 Beginning of 1961 Model Year
30 July 1962 4 846 836 Beginning of 1963 Model Year
4 764 156 (114-115) (export)
1 0ct. 1962 5 007 275 Beginning of 1963 Model Year
(Germany Only)


Once the 65 model year rolled around and the number system changed there is no longer the different dates noted for export or Germany.
3 Aug. 1964, 115 000 001 1965 Model Year
2 Aug. 1965 116 000 001 1966 model year
1 Aug. 1966 117 000 001 1967 model year


These are the only year notes, nothing before 1959, Many years not even mentioned.
By the other years failure of being mentioned, does one assume they were on schedule with the Beginning of August model year change over? Following factory policy?

Not sure where I stand on all of this, just interesting.

Dave
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is such a great topic and its nice to see all the great info being put into one place. These two years are my... Well... At least second favorite cars and Ive own lots and lots of them.

Heres a little difference between the two that hasnt been brought up yet. And anyone with a 59 and a 58 can check and see this. In the engine compartment on both sides of the engine there are two rubber drain tubes that run down the back of the fire wall from the top drip rail to the engine trays on both sides of the engine. But, on a 58 there is a small metal tube that the rubber tube mounts too on top AND bottom. And on a 59 there is only a metal tube on the top for the rubber tube to mount to and on the engine tray there is a hole for the rubber tube to go threw.

You cant tell the difference by this picture but you can see the tubes that are only present on 58s & 59s...

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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some more detailed photos. This is a September '58 car (the change happened early).
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent thread! Dancing

Another interesting question is the changeover from 14mm to 13mm fender bolts. Progressive Refinements lists the change at 1 904 235 (March '58 ), however there is evidence some cars as late as 1959 model year still used 14mm bolts originally. My car is 1 922 928 and has 14mm hardware that is most certainly original. Also, did the pan and fuel tank mounting bolts change over at the same time?
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AlteWagen
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 59 vert also had 14mm bolts for fenders and pan.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trayle D. the real oggfk wrote:
Heres a little difference between the two that hasnt been brought up yet. And anyone with a 59 and a 58 can check and see this. In the engine compartment on both sides of the engine there are two rubber drain tubes that run down the back of the fire wall from the top drip rail to the engine trays on both sides of the engine. But, on a 58 there is a small metal tube that the rubber tube mounts too on top AND bottom. And on a 59 there is only a metal tube on the top for the rubber tube to mount to and on the engine tray there is a hole for the rubber tube to go threw.



By lookint at the VIN of my '58, 1734156, I believe it was made in Nov of '57 and does not have the metal tubes at the bottom of the drains.....
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HerrrKafer wrote:

Another interesting question is the changeover from 14mm to 13mm fender bolts. Progressive Refinements lists the change at 1 904 235 (March '58 ), however there is evidence some cars as late as 1959 model year still used 14mm bolts originally.


Etzold (see my previous post on page 1 of this thread) states the same VIN for this change. According to Etzold on 14 April 58, VIN 1 904 235, fender bolts and the bolts of the honk has changed to 13mm

Trayle D. the real oggfk wrote:

Heres a little difference between the two that hasnt been brought up yet. And anyone with a 59 and a 58 can check and see this. In the engine compartment on both sides of the engine there are two rubber drain tubes that run down the back of the fire wall from the top drip rail to the engine trays on both sides of the engine. But, on a 58 there is a small metal tube that the rubber tube mounts too on top AND bottom. And on a 59 there is only a metal tube on the top for the rubber tube to mount to and on the engine tray there is a hole for the rubber tube to go threw.


I also think that this has happend earlier. I just checked, my 22 Oct 58 doesn't have the lower metal mount either.
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A true 58 is such a sweet car. I love both years, but an early 58 with all the oval parts like the reservoir tray rear seat lugauge strips and 14mm bolts is just a cool ass car.

My book shows

58 = Aug. 1957 - Oct. 58
59 = Nov. 1958 - Sept. 59

Heres some other cool stuff my book says about 58s and 59s.

"For the 1959 Karmann cabriolet model, the way the to boot attached was changed. New snaps and studs and positioning of such, gave the boot a better fit. Leatherete replaced cloth headlining material on the top header strip in March of 1959."

There was a question earlier about outside mirror stud and what was right. I was always under the impression that these were added at the dealerships. but appearantly the studd itself was changed in mid 58 production from what was provided in the previous oval aera. Heres what my book says.

"On Halloween of 1958, the top left door hinge was changed. The new hinge had a threaded stud to which a rear view mirror and mounting arm could be attached. If no mirror was present, a threaded cap was fit in place."

Interesting

"In January of 1959 the small "made in West Germany" plate that had been mounted below the I.D. plate was discontinued. In addition, the type of description changed again, for example: from 1/11 and 1/17 to 111 and 117 respectively."

On Convertibles...

"In September of 1958 the convertible hood release lock, under the dash, was moved closer to the steering column."

"In July, 1958 a PVC seal was added to the ash tray to maike it air tight". Im not sure what that is refering too, Ive never seen it... Anyone got a pricture of this change??? Maybe Ive just never noticed.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trayle D. the real oggfk wrote:
.........My book shows .........


Please tell us what "my book" is that you are quoting.

Dave
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mario_0609 wrote:

stale air, by chance, do you have also a picture of the fender directly from the side? Then we could compare the swing of the wheelhouse to other models...



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. I spent the day working on the car, but before I got too deep into it I got my fenders down from my loft (a '60 hardtop roof suspended upside down from the ceiling of the garage) and took some comparative photos. I have a full set of '58 fenders and a '64 driver's front that came with my car. Hopefully these combined with some of the other photos in this thread will help figure this out. Disclaimer, these are not off my car so I don't know the dates they were actually made, to the best of my knowledge they are correct to my September '58 German market car. The '58 fender is the shiny red one, the '64 is the light blue dusty one.

Profile:
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From above:
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Bucket (not the greatest, but it's something):
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Now for a angle-by-angle rotation of the curve where the fender meets the running board:
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Note the angle at the bottom compared to the '64 fender below.
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One last shot of the other '58 fender, just in case it helps with anything (I took it, then decided to use the other one):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If anyone has any known fenders on either end of this one year wise, or can narrow it down to a better date range, please respond.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
When you browse through the "General Modifications" pages of the PR, both Volume 1 and 2. There are many years with a later year change date, most often in October.

1 Oct. 1959 2 632 801 Start of 1960 Model
1 Oct. 1960 3 335 848 Beginning of 1961 Model Year
30 July 1962 4 846 836 Beginning of 1963 Model Year
4 764 156 (114-115) (export)
1 0ct. 1962 5 007 275 Beginning of 1963 Model Year
(Germany Only)


Once the 65 model year rolled around and the number system changed there is no longer the different dates noted for export or Germany.
3 Aug. 1964, 115 000 001 1965 Model Year
2 Aug. 1965 116 000 001 1966 model year
1 Aug. 1966 117 000 001 1967 model year


These are the only year notes, nothing before 1959, Many years not even mentioned.
By the other years failure of being mentioned, does one assume they were on schedule with the Beginning of August model year change over? Following factory policy?

Not sure where I stand on all of this, just interesting.

Dave


Bingo! I think we have our answer. The model year start dates in PR between 1958 and 1963 were for West German registration purposes only . Before that, the year stamped in the "Baujähr" block was used for registrations and after 1963, the standard model year changeover date (~1 August) was used.

This also explains the reason for the model year plates found on some 1959 and 1960 356s.
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