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Bostig conversion, Charcoal cannister. Anybody done this?
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Vsyevolod
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sanfordphoto wrote:
Hey Stephen, did you ever get this figured out?


Nope, never did. I have an open question on the Bostig GMail group that has received zero responses so far.

And while people responding to my query here on the Samba have all been helpful, no one has been able to address the actual install techniques.

I'd go straight to the TEC shop to ask them about it (only live a few miles away), except they kinda burned their bridges with me a month or two ago.

If you make any more headway with it than I have, please be sure to post here...

Stephen




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Vsyevolod
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that TenCentLife came the closest to answering it for me.

Quote:
You ought to set this system up to work instead of sidelining it like that. In order to work with the standard control valve, though, there has to be a throttle vacuum nipple on the engine's throttle body. That means a nipple where there is no vac at idle, but vac comes on as soon as the throttle tips in. It will be on the TB directly in line with the plane of the butterfly when closed. If there is no such thing on the Zetec TB then it will be harder to make work, but not impossible.

Once you find the throttle-vac nipple, connect the top of the EEC control valve to there. Connect the bottom fitting of the valve to intake manifold anywhere after the TB.


The only problem there is he's speaking to me as if I were a shop mechanic and can follow him through the directions. As it is, there are too many things that I haven't a clue what he's saying or even how to figure out what he's saying and my mind goes numb while my eyes start to glaze over. (Sorry, there's no appropriate emoticon for that face...)

Really, I appreciate the help. I just don't know how to start figuring it out. It's amazing that a company like Bostig can take a non-mechanic like me and help me do a very very complex thing like switch out my engine. It's running great BTW. Like TenCent said, I really ought to set this system up to work. I'd love to do that once I wrap my head around it.

Stephen




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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Stephen, I would be happy to help you figure it out. My kids are on Spring break this week, so I will have limited time until April 5th, but after that I would be happy to try to make arrangements ot get togehter.
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bquigs
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen,

The Zetec throttle body lacks the proper vacuum nipple to make this work as designed and explained by loogy and tencent. I would try connecting the the white plastic line to the intake plenum and purple hose to the large rubber intake hose with as small an orifice as possible. Interestingly, the TEC shop document in the Bostig files recommends the reverse of this but that doesn't seam correct. Since its the purple line that actuates the valve by vacuum this would seam to have the effect of opening the valve and venting the tank all the time which is not what you want. Im thinking that a connection to the intake hose with a very small orifice may prevent the valve from opening at idle when vacuum is low in the intake hose but open it as you open the throttle and begin to move more air. A check with a vacuum gauge on said connection would confirm this.

Not sure if this un-metered fuel would cause any running issues though. A tune may be needed to account for it, but my understanding of things on this end is limited. Post your results, I would like to hook mine up as well.

--Bquigs
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would try connecting the the white plastic line to the intake plenum and purple hose to the large rubber intake hose with as small an orifice as possible.


Right, that is the alternative scenario I had in mind when I said above that it was not impossible to set this up if the TB lacks a throttle vacuum signal port. There is no vacuum upstream of the TB when the butterfly is closed, but vacuum rises there once the throttle tips. It's that vacuum signal that has to be used to open the EEC control valve.



Quote:
Interestingly, the TEC shop document in the Bostig files recommends the reverse of this but that doesn't seam correct. Since its the purple line that actuates the valve by vacuum this would seam to have the effect of opening the valve and venting the tank all the time which is not what you want


Ironically, if you were to connect the lines in reverse like this it would actually work for the most part because there is no vacuum upstream of the TB, so the canister would still only purge when the throttle is tipped, but the vacuum would be more variable, whereas under the intended regime the vacuum just off idle and at part throttle is strong and would purge the canister more effectively. If you were to do it this way, the EEC valve could actually be eliminated and instead have the purge line just go direct from the canister to the intake just upstream of the TB. But the system will work better if it is set up as intended.
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Vsyevolod
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good news, the Bostig/Charcoal Cannister issue has been addressed. Gory details to follow...

With the help of fellow Sambanista Chris/Loogy (who understands these things much more than I), we fabricated a "T" to go in between the throttle body and engine where there was just a short 4" breather tube before. Chris had a hexagonal brass female/female air hose extension that was a little too short, so we put an air hose nipple on either end just to extend the length. These were then cut short and turned on a lathe to reduce the ends for hose fitment. The center was then drilled and tapped to receive the narrow diameter fitting. A few photos...


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The body after cutting off the nipples (ouch).


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Turning on the lathe.



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Ahh, that's the diameter that we're looking for... Note a small groove has been cut to help the rubber hose seal itself.


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Drilling for the center tap.



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The center unit before installing.



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Assembled with short lengths of hose attached.



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We then needed to find a vacuum port, one was located below the throttle body. This gets connected at the other end to the lower port on the Cannister valve.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The "T" section installed to the right of the throttle body and replaces the 4" nylon breather hose. Since this is a low pressure vacuum system, no hose clamps were necessary. This hose gets connected to the upper port on the Cannister valve.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

...and an out of focus Charcoal Cannister valve showing 'proper' routing. The upper hose goes to the vacuum line and the lower hose goes to the "T" just before the throttle body.


The vacuum port tested at about -20 suckage, the small port near the throttle body at about -1 or -2. The important thing is to have that second port be small enough to not alter the idle. After first installing it, we ran the engine and covered/uncovered the small hole with a finger and heard a very tiny change in engine sound. Not enough to worry about. We were prepared to reduce the I.D. of the port if necessary. The throttle body port received a 5/32" hose (about 37" long), while the vacuum port received a 7/32" hose (about 45" long). Both hoses attached to a short length of the original white nylon tube (didn't have any of the lavender tube left). The hoses were readily available in the automotive section of a local hardware store.

And the best news of all... I don't notice anything! This most likely means that the Charcoal Cannister is doing it's proper work. We did test the Cannister early on, to make sure it was functioning properly.

If there is any interest out there from Bostig owners needing that center "T" section, Chris said he's available to make them up from brass hexagonal stock.

Thanks again to Chris who was extremely generous with his time and expertise. Hopefully my documentation will help others deal with the proper routing and venting of gas fumes.

And thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.

Stephen




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tozovr
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are going through all of this trouble to make this Ford factory Correct, please not how the Setup responds, Better mileage? Runs better etc. generally I'm all for keeping voodoo emissions stuff intact even with a swap, but I'm chuckling at how far in depth this thread has become regarding something of completely un-verifiable benefit. Many folks are realy to rock when tweaking their vanagons for more power, more ride height etc etc...all things shunned by the original designers of the cars...yet we travel down this rabbit hole of Evap and charcoal cannisters because...well because..why?

Please don't read this as a slam or a bash, I'm just smiling and really loving the whole group right now lol.
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Vsyevolod
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As is clearly stated in this thread, a properly installed Charcoal Evap system will not alter the performance of your car in the slightest. We do it to keep gasoline emissions from polluting the Earth. Do you need more reason than that? I guess I don't... Smile

Stephen




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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because it controls 1/5 of overall vehicle emissions with simple cheap and durable components at zero cost to performance or efficiency. You would never notice in driveability whether the EEC was working or not, it just sits in the background and quietly does its thing, so don't ask for observable performance or mileage improvements, there are none. If you don't mind your van being a much bigger polluter than it has to be, then don't bother with EEC. Entiendes?
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Hmmm, provincial much?:
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tozovr
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vsyevolod wrote:
As is clearly stated in this thread, a properly installed Charcoal Evap system will not alter the performance of your car in the slightest. We do it to keep gasoline emissions from polluting the Earth. Do you need more reason than that? I guess I don't... Smile

Stephen




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tencentlife wrote:
Because it controls 1/5 of overall vehicle emissions with simple cheap and durable components at zero cost to performance or efficiency. You would never notice in driveability whether the EEC was working or not, it just sits in the background and quietly does its thing, so don't ask for observable performance or mileage improvements, there are none. If you don't mind your van being a much bigger polluter than it has to be, then don't bother with EEC. Entiendes?


That is why I asked. Not trying to be snotty here. HOW much more of a polluter would it be? That is what I'm asking. X PPM of hydro carbons released etc etc. I'm not implying not to do this, I'm asking for someone, anyone to quantify it as it applies to all vehicles, not just the vans. Also, we filter the fumes in a charcoal canister...does that neutralize the hydrocarbons or whatever the pollutant is or just trap them, only to be later discarded in a junkyard or a landfill and polluting the ground etc. Like an electric car that is GREAT on gas and emissions, but is built from batteries that are horrible polluters when manufacture4d and disposed of...

I know on my VR jetta I worked really hard at maintaining the entire system when I installed the Carbonio Cold Air intake, partially for the selfish reason of not wanting a CEL and partially because I felt I needed to act responsible with my vehicle regarding the environment...Then again, I'd just installed new Cams etc.

Did I articulate it better there?
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, so I have to admit that I am a little embarrassed at the workmanship of the adapter shown in Stephen's pictures. The day was really one of those McGuyver situations where I just used what I had on hand and adapted it to work for our needs. Not being 100% sure that our plan would work, I didn't want to spend a bunch of time making something purdy if I was just going to have to rethink the whole plan. I have already decided that if this plan ends up working, I am going to make Stephen a new one that is more accurate and finished.

As for the operation of the canister valve, my hand vacuum pump is broken so I couldn't actually check how much vacuum is required to open the valve. I did do a rudimentary test by sucking about 20 hg onto the extraction hose from the valve with my mouth, clamping off the vacuum hose, attaching my vacuum gauge and releasing clamp on the hose. The extraction side of the valve held that vacuum until I sucked very lightly on the actuation vacuum hose at which point the valve immediately opened and the vacuum on the gauge fell to zero. That test showed me that it does not take much vacuum to actuate the valve, but just how much/little vacuum is needed, I don't know.

My concern, with the way that we hooked up Stephen's system, is that there won't be enough vacuum to actuate the valve properly. The throttle body doesn't have any place to attach a vacuum hose to. I figured that before we butcher up the throttle body, we should at least try to use the existing head breather port that it attached just before the throttle body which does have a small amount of vacuum (like Stephen mentioned), but again, I'm not sure that it is enough.
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have an exact amount, but the valve is pretty sensitive. The vac needed is as low as 2"Hg. VW's spec for TB vac ports is they must have less than 1"Hg. at idle.
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Hmmm, provincial much?:
Quote:
"I wouldn't go much on whats written on the samba, they love a "theory" and rarely ask any Europeans what is actually correct."
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edbee
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:34 pm    Post subject: zetec/vanagon evaporative emission controls Reply with quote

Stephen, tencent and Loogy,

Thank you all for your time and insights on this. I am working on a 91 syncro westy restoration/Bostig conversion and the information here will be very helpful when I get to that stage. One of the reasons I decided to go with a Zetec is I hoped it would end up being less polluting than my old waterboxer (among many other advantages)

Thanks again,
Ed
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