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itzdshtz Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006 Posts: 117 Location: Revelstoke
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:57 pm Post subject: Bigger brake booster, improved brakes. |
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To improve my brakes, I have installed Audi G60 brake calipers and vented rotors on the front and vented disc brakes on the back but I thought that I could improve the brake system even more by installing a bigger brake booster.
After scrounging through a lot of wrecking yards and looking at brake boosters I found a 10" booster that will fit the Vanagon without any major modifications.
The original Vanagon brake booster has a 9" diameter so an upgrade to a 10" means that it is like putting about 20 percent more force on the pedal with the same effort.
The brake booster came from a E30 (3) series BMW, which is easy to find in wrecking yards, made from 1982---- 1990, and until 1993 for the convertible.
I test fitted the booster on a spare set of pedals first to see if it fitted.
The BMW unit is on the left.
To make it fit, a 1/4" piece has to be cut off the threaded rod, then the original clevis from a Vanagon has to be drilled out and tapped to M10x1.5 (drill with a11/32" drill) and mounted onto the threaded rod.
Adjust the length of the rod to 111,5 MM or 4 3/8" from booster mounting face to the center of the clevis. (see Bentley page 46.10)
The BMW clevis is on the right, the pin doesn't fit.
Installation.
I had already replaced my heater core and did not want to take the whole dashboard out again so I just took the instrument panel out, drained all the brake fluid out of the reservoir and unbolted the master cylinder, making sure that no brake fluid was spilled.
The hard part was to take out the two small brackets from the steering column mount to the mount under the windshield. I ended up bending a 10 mm wrench to get the angle right.
Next I had to unbolt the clutch master cylinder, the aluminum pedal frame, the vacuum line and lift the frame up a bit in order to get the pivot pin out of the clevis and removed the booster.
Since I was in there, I removed the clutch pedal and checked and lubricated the pivot pin to the clutch master cylinder, I left the brake pedal in place.
Next was to put it all back in reverse order and bleed the brakes.
I have not tested it on the road yet, I will have to have to go through a vehicle inspection first in March in order to drive it on the road but it feels better than before.
Herman _________________ 1989 Westy
1987 Westy Syncro 2.5 M- TDI
1991 Syncro, future 1.9 M- TDI
2005 Audi allroad 4.2
2005 S4
http://vanagonsyncroproject-herman.blogspot.com/
http://picasaweb.google.com/itzdshtz/VanagonSyncroProject02 |
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sc-surfer Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 865 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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why do you need a vehicle inspection? _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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itzdshtz Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006 Posts: 117 Location: Revelstoke
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syncrodoka Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005 Posts: 11997 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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In the syncro yahoo group this came up a little while ago. Florian got a part from germany that is supposed to work BMW part# 34331157983 http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/44354
I cannot find one on this side of the pond. It is good know that there is a US version that might work.
Is there a part number on yours? |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10333 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Hey that's a really useful write up and pics. Even just to show how the pedals/booster etc can be R&R'd with dash left in place.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy, 15º ABA
1988 West, 50º ABA
Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh
VE7TBN |
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Alaric.H Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2009 Posts: 2529 Location: Sandy Springs GA
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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I have a bigger one that is from europe it was sent over with my rear brake set up. Fit right in are so I was told I did not do that job.
Even with the rear brakes not working the van stops great. |
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wbx Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2005 Posts: 1254 Location: Monterey, CA
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Are there any downsides to a bigger brake booster? _________________ '84 Westy (first owner).......but my daily driver has pedals
My "perspective" mantra:
A Volkswagen Vanagon is just a material thing,
As such, it is of the earth,
And if i need to, I can let my Van go. |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:28 am Post subject: |
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wbx wrote: |
Are there any downsides to a bigger brake booster? |
Sure.
With stock brakes you could smoke them, lock them up and maybe blow cylinders.
People have been known to hurt themselves with too much brakes, too easy to apply.
Big brakes don't seem to need more help, though for most applications, but with all the lifting, bigger wheels and bigger engines going into the vans, a little easier pedal may help. _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:40 am Post subject: |
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I have used this with big brake upgrades front and rear.
Yes, the parts need to be sourced from Europe.
dylan |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5374 Location: PNW
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:57 am Post subject: |
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wbx wrote: |
Are there any downsides to a bigger brake booster? |
It really comes down to brake modulation/sensitivity. With more booster pressure comes less leg effort for a given amount of braking pressure. If the booster pressure is too great, it will be hard to "feel" what the brakes are doing and will therefore be easier to apply too much brake when it's not wanted/needed.
The larger booster will not give you any more ultimate stopping power out of an otherwise same braking system. It will increase the initial pressure that is applied to the master cylinder and that increased initial pressure means that you can reach a specified brake system pressure slightly sooner in the pedal travel and with less effort than with the smaller booster. Ultimately, the same peak pressure can be reached with the small booster, it just takes more foot pressure to do so.
Of the people that I know who have installed this larger booster, all have had modified braking systems and all have liked the upgrade. I don't know anyone who has made the change to a stock braking system. I have an Oettinger booster (basically the same as the USA based BMW unit) here that I have been planning to install on my big braked van. Maybe I should install it on the stock van first just to see what it feels like. My guess is that on the early van (stock early style brakes), the upgrade might be worthwhile, but on the later vans that have the larger caliper pistons (stock later style brakes), the larger booster might be too much. That's only a rough guess though. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:26 am Post subject: |
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insyncro wrote: |
Yes, the parts need to be sourced from Europe.
dylan |
The BMW booster that Syncrodoka lists above is available in the US, used, for about $50 thru recyclers.
Now that the cat is out of the bag on this, they may dry up..
But there were a heck of a lot of 3 series BMWs that used this ATE booster.
The timing of this thread is amazing.. I have two boosters arrving via UPS early next week. Mine will be coupled with G60s and 288mm disks inside 16s and 29" tires. Additional pedal will be appreciated.
The other goes on a van with VC big brake kit, (I think)
Thanks itzdshtz for the photos! Very helpful.
Given that you did not pull the dash, how many wrenching hours went into this project?
I dread the dash... but I hear its not as bad as some make it out to be.
Good to know it can go in either way. _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, NEW parts can be sourced from Europe.
df |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5374 Location: PNW
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: |
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insyncro wrote: |
Sorry, NEW parts can be sourced from Europe.
df |
Just to clarify, new BMW boosters are availble through the US BMW dealers as well. In other words, a person does not have to have a European contact to order a new BMW booster. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:39 am Post subject: |
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I missed the boat on this one.
I have used a larger master cylinder, not booster.
The system was larger up front and disc in rear.
I did all new plumbing.
The part I used was from a Eurospec car that needed a small mod.
My bad.
dylan |
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syncrodoka Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005 Posts: 11997 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:47 am Post subject: |
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I have tried the EU number through many online dealers in the US and they don't recognize it. I guess that one would have to walk into a dealer and get a price quote.
Yanking one out of the many US spec. 3 series BMW's in the junk yard seems a lot cheaper though. The brake booster is one part that seems to last.
I want to put one on my trail toy with 29" tires with the audi G60 front brakes- still looking for a good rear disk brake with a E brake that works well.
Thanks for the writeup itzdshtz |
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klucz Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2006 Posts: 1062 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:19 am Post subject: |
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E30s came with two different boosters:
ATE 34331157416
GIRLING 34331157908 _________________ 84 Westy 4spd sold |
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itzdshtz Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006 Posts: 117 Location: Revelstoke
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Wellington Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2004 Posts: 1880 Location: Montreal
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:23 am Post subject: |
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I have done this install coupled with G60 calipers and I think it's one of the best upgrades available. |
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rs4-380 Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006 Posts: 449 Location: Maine
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:48 am Post subject: |
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interesting, although I would go with a larger master cylinder over a larger booster. A larger booster will make it easier to depress the pedal, but not necessarily give you any more braking "power". _________________ Dave
87 EJ25 Syncro GL |
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