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ZsZ Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 1642 Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 9:54 pm Post subject: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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Recently my alternator belt started to squeak badly on startups (1Z m-tdi with the JX dual V-belt setup and 90A diesel alt.) So I went and changed the belt. With the new belt it still squeaked regardless however tight I tensioned the belt.
Checked the alternator, there is a plastic sleeve on the rear bearing that was a bit loose, shimmed it with a strip of beer can, and the brushes were worn so did put in a spare voltage regulator.
The squeak was still there.
I removed the fuse of the glow plugs (still JX setup with AAZ relay and spliced onto the tdi wiring bridge) and the squeak is gone. So as my prediction the glow plugs draw too much.
Tested the current on the main ground cable at the battery with a clamp meter while the glow plugs were on.
The draw was over 70A after turning the key on, that is dropped to around 50Amps.in a few seconds.
Tested each glow plug with jumper cables, they all measured 20A on start, which dropped to 10A glowing.
They seemed to glow up a bit slow like 5-6 sec, and the 50A fuse not blowing for 80A draw is strange.
I am not sure if these figures are good or not. They seems to be fine.
Any other testing I should do to decide if the alternator or the glow plugs are bad? _________________ Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17009 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed May 17, 2023 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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I’m not familiar with your setup, but I’m pretty sure the glowplugs should not be on after the engine has started using the original relay. The amp draws sound fairly normal. Once they are at temp, I’d expect the draw to be 36 amps or 9 per each plug. Do they eventually shut off? _________________ ☮️ |
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ZsZ Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 1642 Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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Posted: Wed May 17, 2023 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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The relay is a post-glow relay with max 180sec post.
It is used on the 1.9 diesel Mk3 golfs T4, etc. Pre-ecu era.
They go off in around that time frame, and after that the squeak stops and the belt runs as is should.
Now I sanded the pulley to remove the glaze and will try to buy a shorter belt as I am on the end of the adjuster with the new belt.
If the amperes are correct then the alternator is the suspect.
It puts out the 14.5V but who know how many amperes.
Have to find a company to test it. _________________ Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4715 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Wed May 17, 2023 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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post a picture of where your belt rides in the alternator pulley... dollars to donuts it is riding low. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6315 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed May 17, 2023 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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ALIKA T3 wrote: |
I'm pretty sure the glow plug draw is 48A total, 12A per glow plug. |
They can pull 12 to even 20 amps in my experience. _________________ .ssS! |
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ZsZ Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 1642 Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2023 5:23 am Post subject: Re: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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DanHoug wrote: |
post a picture of where your belt rides in the alternator pulley... dollars to donuts it is riding low. |
it seems like it:
_________________ Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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ZsZ Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 1642 Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2023 5:55 am Post subject: Re: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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I was checking ETKA and it might be that I need a 9.5x600 belt rather than the 9.5x615 (9.5x612) I am using _________________ Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4715 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2023 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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notice where the alt belt rides in the crank pulley... that's about right, tho a tad low. belts should ride even with the top of the pulley if not a tad higher.
the belt in the alt pulley is way low. so low in fact you may be having the bottom of the belt touching the bottom of the pulley, eliminating the inherent clamping force of the V belt design. since your crank pulley belt depth looks pretty good, i think you'd greatly benefit from fitting a different alt pulley that sits the belt up more. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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ZsZ Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 1642 Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2023 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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OK!
It is not bottoming out, but sits deep that is sure:
_________________ Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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ZsZ Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 1642 Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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bought a new pulley for the alt.
Now the belt slips at the water pump
_________________ Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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I'd get 4 new bosch glow plugs and keep the old ones as spares.
Is the head of the alt pivot bolt bottoming out on the bracket or is it still applying pressure to the sliding press-fit bushing in order to properly pinch the alt in the bracket?
If you put a socket on the alt bolt and try to rotate it, does it turn the crankshaft or does one of the belts slip? |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4715 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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also, while there is VERY little belt area on the water pump, it generally is enough to spin it without slippage. with the belt loose or off, check to make sure the water pump spins freely with just slight resistance of the seal. mebbe you have a bad bearing that has been compounding issues all along. nice looking pulley and belt position with the new pulley! that's an improvement.
and check alignment of everything, which you've probably done. there's a crazy number of alternator pulley lengths!
in the States, CRC makes a belt dressing aerosol that seems like rubber cement in a spray can. it DOES add gription to belts and can stop a squawk but doesn't last real long. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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ZsZ Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 1642 Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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Posted: Sun May 21, 2023 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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OK, it seems like I have fixed the slip.
Checked the slip with the method you said Waldo. It slipped at the water pump pulley on the crank-pump belt
Removed the water pump pulley. Checked the water pump - it feels to turn fine. The pulley itself is not obviously worn, but have some marks. With an emery cloth I removed the shine from all the water pump pulley belt surfaces. Assembled with one less shim and tested it. It was still slipping a bit, so removed one more shim and now it is fine. Now it has only one shim. (9.5x630 belt) Probably the crank pulley is worn too.
The belt feels a bit too tight now, but still can turn it almost 90 degrees and push in a few mms.
Belt alignment:
The water pump pulley is one mm out as the aftermarket pump has a paper gasket which is just as thick.
The alternator tilts downwards a degree or so. I could not get it perfect, but tried and got it better.
The pivot bolt presses on the bushing, but the bushing is stuck in the bracket and I could not get it move outwards. However the alternator itself sits tight with the bolt tightened. he pivot bolt has a few tenth of a mm play in the bushing and in the alternator. it adds up in the end.
The best I could get it is about a mm tilt in plane measured to the water pump pulley inner edge. The problem is if I tighten the belt more the alternator starts to tilt more.
BTW the glow plugs are BERU (OEM supplier for VW) and were changed a few months before. Previously I had Champions. Might switch them back and test the draw.
And might run it witout the glow plugs in the summer - it starts fine without them, but smokes grey on cold mornings. (502 injectors, 4.5 degrees idle SOI, which drops below 3 degrees around 1800-2000RPM)
AFAIK CRC does not sell their belt spray here, but there are other brands. However I am not a big fan of these snake-oil treatments.
Thanks all guys! _________________ Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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ZsZ Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 1642 Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2024 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Bad glow plugs, or bad alternator? |
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Not much update yet.
I ran this year without the glow plugs. No problems, but just realized that the local belt shop gave me XPZ belts instead of the AVX10. The XPZ is 9.7mm wide instead of the 10, so it has a tiny little difference in the cross section angle.
Might be the cause of the slight slipping.
I also figured out, that I have a 612mm long belt instead of the 600mm on the water pump-alternator (630 vs 625 on the crankshaft-water pump)
This also can be why I cannot really tighten the belt fully.
_________________ Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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