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Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives
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chase4food
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for a $30 sliding door bearing Reply with quote

Terry Kay wrote:
You did.

Hang a lever on the end of single bearing run, and then a load on that lever--
Id that a direct straight down loading force?
I think not--really very simple.

Then --take 2 bearings which will carry any load of the same weight, and run them on a track to move the object, in this case a sliding door.
It's a straight down load, no leverage on the end of an arm action, plus two bearings instead of one.

What's the problem with the no comprede' absorption process?


We must not be talking about the same wheel/bearing. I am referring to the one that support the weight of the read end of the door.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can argue it support a free hanging weight that the effective CG (as far as the wheel/bearing sees) is not on the center point of the bearing axle. That is a moot argument in the sliding door as it is not free hanging. It is guided by the front wheels as well as the runners at the back.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

Popcorn
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

There is a HUGE difference on bearings depending upon how they are loaded.

To have an axle through a bearing with loading forces pushing down equally on both ends of the axle is hugely different than an axle through the bearing, capped on one end and loaded in only one side.

The one side load puts an angular thrust on the outer upper and lower inner points.

The arrows on the right drawing point to area of little to no contact.
This is why incorrect wheel offset will destroy wheel bearings.

Terry Is correct, the sliding door bearings while carrying a similar weight will be loaded far differently.

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Last edited by djkeev on Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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chase4food
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
There is a HUGE difference on bearings depending upon how they are loaded.

To have an axle through a bearing with loading forces pushing down equally on both ends of the axle is hugely different than an axle through the bearing, capped on one end and loaded in only one side.

The one side load puts an angular thrust on the outer upper and lower inner points.

[illustration]

Dave


You are splitting hair Laughing . If the flange is rigid the side way force vectors are not there. Of course nothing in this world is infinitely rigid even if you throw military or space agency's budgets at it, so we can argue till we are blue on this one. Embarassed Must be a lazy sunday afternoon.



[Moderator edit: Off-topic cat photo removed... let's not go down that road in a technical information thread... please.]
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

I may be aplitting hairs but the fact is, TK is right about the bearings wear patterns possibly being affected.

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chase4food
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
I may be aplitting hairs but the fact is, TK is right about the bearings wear patterns possibly being affected.

Dave


I have not have the benefit to see the common wear pattern. As the sliding door is design there is considerable of yawing in the length of the travel which certain causing thrust forces on the sides. May be that is what TK is referring to. This is however horizontal.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

Sorry Dave, I'm with Vince on this. The load on the vertical wheel is 99.9% downwards - the 0.1% is only admitted if all the other bearings (and slider) have given up the ghost.
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chase4food
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

Scratch what I just wrote. Trying to cook and replying to a post is never a good thing. I forgot the mechanism pivots so the wheel run more the less straight, with little yaw for all practical purposes. Still you can split hair on this too. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

While waiting for my various bearings and rollers (2 of the six are here) I've been investigating lubrication.

I've pretty much become convinced that Teflon (PTFE) is the way to go.

PTFE tape and/or PTFE dry lube. The working temperature is so much more wide than UHMW is. PTFE tape will function at the upper end from 300*-500* !! Compare that with UHMW's 230* upper limit.

Rather than run out to the store I was pawing through my supply of chemicals and drew out two PTFE lubricants I have.

One a PB Blaster aerosol of PTE and a non pressurized DUPONT TEFLON Brand.

I shook them both well and applied them to some very large washers I have to see how they lubricated.

BTW...... Teflon is a white powder.

On the left is the Dupont covered washer, one (1) application and the emulsion agent has evaporated leaving a beautiful layer of powdered Teflon.

On the right washer are the results of three (3) applications of the PB Blaster aerosol product. You can see the anemic quantity of Teflon left after the emulsifier agent evaporated away.

Conclusion...... DUPONT it the desired product!!! Especially for the lower front "screething" roller. I do wonder if another PTFE Aerosol brand would deliver a better layer of lubrication?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

That is what Dupont want you to say. Laughing PTFE must be now the generic compound name most likely the Dupont patent has no effect. I ingest them both regularly, in small dosages. I have learn to keep the lower door track clean of grit and sand, and keep clean an lub the rear hidden track.

I have tried silicone spray but found them to last only a short while. I am thinking of gun oil for the bearings. No jamming here at the most critical moment. Very Happy
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

Maybe graphite Dave, like Dri Slide,
I also ran into a spray can of Slick 50 spray lube on the shelf.
It is plenty slippery, and it doesn't want to come off once it's on.
Seems like a good roller lube.

As far as that rear door roller goes, not only is it carrying a horizontal load, what the cherubs forgot to factor in is the spring load on it forcing the rollers shoulders to want to rub on that track, off kilter.

Not a real good way to be riding in an attempted straight line--poor set up, poor design.

I think this bearing is often overlooked the most simply because it's totally out of sight, out of mind, and should be lubed often..
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

If restoration is in the cards, I'd avoid spraying silicones anywhere on the van, it might give your paint guy fits. Perhaps you too, if you is him. Especially if nobody knows there are years of silicone buildup in there, contaminating everything in the vicinity.

Are teflons un-kind for paint prep?

Terry Kay wrote:
I think this bearing is often overlooked the most simply because it's totally out of sight, out of mind, and should be lubed often..


It's not unheard. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
If restoration is in the cards, I'd avoid spraying silicones anywhere on the van, it might give your paint guy fits. Perhaps you too, if you is him. Especially if nobody knows there are years of silicone buildup in there, contaminating everything in the vicinity.

Are teflons un-kind for paint prep?

Terry Kay wrote:
I think this bearing is often overlooked the most simply because it's totally out of sight, out of mind, and should be lubed often..


It's not unheard. Laughing


As I understand it, Teflon simply lies on the surface, adheres to but does not bond with...... Unless you apply it with a heat process.

A problem with the outside rollers and tracks will be the constant wind stripping it away..... Literally blowing it off.

When the door is closed, the lower track is relatively protected.

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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:10 pm    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

Silicone is bad for future body work, painting.

Most guys here use a roller & a brush paint jobs, why worry about a little lubrication?

That Slick 50 spray lube has PTFE's in it, no slicone.

It'll wipe off with lacquer thinner if necessary.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: $5 fix for the $30 grooved 85 up sliding door bearing Reply with quote

In this envelope came what I hope is part of the answer to the screething metal lower roller bearing (old one on top of it )

This brings the total to three of the six needed bearings to arrive.
Fastenal delivered on two but also messed up on two of them, they will be here tomorrow.
USPS tracking said the 6th one would arrive today...... It didn't.....
And tomorrow some companion bits from Grainger are due in......

Details to follow after installation and testing..... Wink
"Click"..... Shhhhh........ "Click".

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

Fastenal came through today, the two missing bearings are in hand...... 5 of 6 are here.

Grainger delivered as well with my PTFE tape, (how do they make adhesive tape of PTFE..... Nothing sticks to PTFE? so how do they apply the adhesive?!?! )

I cleaned up the lower roller mount, installed the Horizontal bearing that rides in the track and the miniature French Wheel bearing that rides on the lower track bottom.

My new bearing for the French Wheel required some modifications to the mount. A little grinding of the Aluminum support arm for clearance and some shimming of the bearing pilot shaft to accomodate the larger 8mm bearing on the factory 7mm shaft.

It's all done and looks gorgeous! Rolls so smoothly and very quietly across my work bench!

I got out my Decibel meter and went out to the "extra" 86 in my driveway which has a fairly quiet door (as far as sliding doors go) and took some sound measurements.

The rolling of the door was up in the lower 80's which is comparable to standing close to a busy highway in sound intensity.
The final slam as it latched was in the 90's.
This door doesn't "Screetch"!
I wish I had measured mine before I took it apart and cleaned up the rust.

Now if I can figure out how to upload a youtube video, I'll post it here so all can hear the door noise and see the measurements.

Once I finish my door (still waiting for the new Delrin roller bearing) I will do the same measurement and video.

I'm really excited to see if this works!

Many photos have been taken and will become a "how to" once it is complete.

If I fail....... it will become a "what NOT to do" .......

Dave
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Last edited by djkeev on Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:47 am    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

1986 Vanagon sliding door.
Original ignored bearings.
Not badly rusted (Native Californian)


Link


(Just got a tracking update, my Delrin bearings have been "delayed" in Kearny N.J. Since Monday..... Oops! )

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

what dB meter is that?

and at what distance?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

Sorry, I Don't know the brand, it has a rubbed off sticker on it....... It's nothing high dollar, we had some noisy events and the neighbors were complaining so we were monitoring the noise.


The meter was sitting on the floor of the Van, you can see the edge of the metal middle seat track covers in the video.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:41 am    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

Well...... My experience with the USPS is overwhelmingly good....... Until now!

It appears that the fine Jersey village of Kearny has lost my Delrin door rollers! Crying or Very sad

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