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Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives
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djkeev Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

OK...... An update.

I installed my new plastic roller bearings and then life got in the way of Vanagons.

My work is an eight week seasonal type where we GO like wild fire for about four months.

Anyway, the Van was put outside and I Haven't touched it.

I needed something out of it and opened the sliding door and thrust it rearward as I normally have done and I swear, I Almost threw it into the next County!
That thing slid so well it was unbelieveable!

Very happy with my door function.
It may not whisper like I sought but it rolls mighty fine!

Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:10 am    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

Just wanted to post another option for folks dealing with the rounded lower track bearing. So I fixed up the slider door on my brother's van the other day. I removed the assembly and found the bearing was quite sticky/gummy. Instead of pulling it and replacing it, I tried something else. First I popped off the plastic cover, then I submerged the bearing and assembly in paint thinner for several hours. While it sat, I occasionally picked it out of the glass jar and would gently spin the bearing back and forth in my fingers. After a half day of this I felt all the grease had been removed and the bearing felt much better. I then let it sit on some paper towels on the bench and let it air dry. After it was nice and dry I found I was able to pack the bearing with some green sticky grease. Just using my thumb and working it, working it, working it. In just a few minutes I saw grease coming out of the backside. Reinstalled the plastic cap and done! Is it new? No, of course not, but this particular bearing didn't have a lot of play and I made the judgement call that it still had some life. After repacking it's significantly smoother and quieter. Here's a picture showing the grease popping out the backside.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Another thing I found, was that I did indeed have a replaceable bearing (251.843.361B) on the bearing that rides the track on the backside. So if your van has a replaceable bearing here, it's a 607 bearing inside. So one 607, two 608s, and two 609s.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

Well......even though I can apparently buy quiet bearings from
Germany for $100+......

I'm plugging on!

My new plastic bearings arrived. Dry out of the package they aren't quiet like metal bearings are....... I lathered them in PTFE......

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


But, I purchased them..... They are going in!

Installing new bearings without removing the door is quite honestly easy!

Simply open the door and find the lower track guide arm.
There are two H6 allen headed bolts there.
To make life easy, draw around them with a marker so you know where they were. Eliminates a lot if annoying adjustment later!

Remove the two bolts while holding the bottom of the door with gentle upward pressure.

Have a box or something about the height of your door bottom there so you can rest the door on it once it comes loose.

I clamped the roller unit in my vise and pulled off the 609 bearing. A battery terminal puller with a small spacer screw works superbly!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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The upper 609 bearing is also easy to do, a helper (which I did NOT have) would make it almost simple!
Simply lift the door off the box and drop it slightly disengaging the upper roller.
Remove the clip and pull off the bearing.

When finished put the front tracks all back together.

The rear track?
Even easier!

Look at the top of your track, you will see a raised spot about mid span......

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And looking from the side....

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Stop the door at the raised hump, lift up a little and swing the grooved roller off the track.

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Gently drop the door down and set it on your box again.....

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I found my portable jump start battery height to be just about perfect!

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Put on the two new 608 bearings and reassemble!
Easy!!!!

Here are some photos of my Delrin grooved roller on the door edge protector covered track......

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What's the noise level?

Well...... Not the whisper I had hoped for but it is darn quiet!

I do have concerns about the open plastic bearings, more the two rear outside ones. But really? They are so cheap and so easy to replace...... It is a price that I'll gladly pay for a quiet door!

All told...... The final 6 bearings cost me less than $30. Plus shipping......

I'll post a decibel video when I can.....

Dave
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

$90 euro for 85+ ($120 Euro for <84)

now that you have it figured out, how much to buy the bearings/rollers you are using?



djkeev wrote:
ALIKA T3 wrote:
I love your project man, it's not about the money, it's about finding a solution that puts you at peace at night Cool

I will just put that here for you to copy and paste in Google Search, bc I mentionned earlier in this thread or somewhere else that you can find all these all done i Germany, but nobody noticed my comment Wink

Flüsterrollen für Schiebetür VW Bus T3

Aloha


Like....... WOW!!!!!!

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/vw-bus...1-223-4975

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

Wow is right...$100+ for a few rollers & hardware...???

Uff da. I like your version just fine! Wink

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:
I love your project man, it's not about the money, it's about finding a solution that puts you at peace at night Cool

I will just put that here for you to copy and paste in Google Search, bc I mentionned earlier in this thread or somewhere else that you can find all these all done i Germany, but nobody noticed my comment Wink

Flüsterrollen für Schiebetür VW Bus T3

Aloha


Like....... WOW!!!!!!

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/vw-bus...1-223-4975

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dave
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

I love your project man, it's not about the money, it's about finding a solution that puts you at peace at night Cool

I will just put that here for you to copy and paste in Google Search, bc I mentionned earlier in this thread or somewhere else that you can find all these all done i Germany, but nobody noticed my comment Wink

Flüsterrollen für Schiebetür VW Bus T3

Aloha
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

Continuing on fleshing out my adventures with Sliding Doors!......

**************

My new lower door roller is a 608 based "plastic. Roller that required minor modifications to install.
It cost $4.95

http://www.vxb.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=8mmx32mm-Tire

The roller wheel is a hard plastic of unknown composition........

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The diameter is 32mm...... 2mm greater than the 30mm stock roller.
Because of this I had to remove a bit of Aluminum for mounting and rolling clearance.

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It wasn't much material needing to be removed, my Dremel with a abrasive grinding stone made short work of the task.....

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The center bearing bore accepts a shaft of 8mm rather than the stock 7mm.

Look at the photo below again, see the small shaft in the larger bearing bore?

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To compensate I shimmed the bore for a snug fit.

I hadn't any shim stock on hand (make mental note..... GET SOME!!!! )
But I did have aluminum step flashing! Turns out it worked perfectly!
See the photo below, you can see the shim stock.....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I Also had to modify the lower mount point for the new bearing. It is thicker so I had to remove some material around the roller axle point,
The new bearing is .281"

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And the original is .240"

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clearly seen in this photo below ...... A file on the aluminum casting was quick and easy.....

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Here is the assembled unit ready to install.....

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As far as operation? It works great!
I lubed the sliding track with liquid PTFE which is a dry lube which won't collect dirt but will require reapplication a few times a year.
I am very pleased with this $5 roller!

The grooved rear roller?
This one is working fantastic!

I'll keep an eye on it during the hot Summer months and see how the door edge holds up.

This is an experiment that is honestly costing as much as if not more than I would have spent if I just purchased the "stock" bearings from Van Cafe.

Between buying multiple bearings (more than the required quantity in case I messed up along the way) the shipping from various vendors, UHMW tape, PTFE tape and the rollers I'll never use........ But I'm having fun and am hoping for the most quiet that can be expected given the original design.

I'm guessing if one were to transplant in a power close mechanism as new minivans have, sliding door noise would be almost non existent. These modern doors close very slowly so there is very little objectionable resonance produced.
But..... I'm NOT going down this rabbit hole!

Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

Dave,

As you mentioned, the rear panel that has the track on it for the rear roller is going to resonate that movement like a drum.

You'd almost have to affix foam rubber on that track to quiet it down totally.
Isolate the roller from the metal track.

Delrin is the right way to go, my question woulsld be how long will it support the bearing with the tiny c-clip groove?

This will be interesting.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

I was going to say... even if you end up spending 1.5x or 2x what the VC rollers cost... If the end result is a "shwooosh click," not "KAAAAAARKDUNK click," I think it's a solid investment.

And all the better that you document things as fastidiously as you do, so we can all reap the rewards and pay pittance to achieve the same result. Sure, you may end up paying 1.5x or 2x more than VC rollers, but you win because they are BETTER rollers, we win because we get better rollers for nadda.

That's win win.

Just because those wins aren't equal, doesn't mean they aren't wins any less.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

Yes Terry, but if I end up with a quiet door?
Money well spent!

Plus you can copy me for free!
R&D by Dave..... Profiting by Terry! Laughing

Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

<<<This is an experiment that is honestly costing as much as if not more than I would have spent if I just purchased the "stock" bearings from Van Cafe. >>>


Honestly I am totally knocked abaft by this conclusion.
I thought for sure you would be on a roll here with experimenting with all kinds of selections / combinations for at least 9-10 months prior to really digging deep and getting near the $30.00 for the VC bearing.

I am really suprised at this Eurika Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

I assembled my Sliding door with my new bearings.

I Sourced my mini metric bearings from my local Fastenal store. Maybe not the cheapest but no freight and fast service....
608.....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


609.....
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I also got some PTFE (teflon) tape. My tape is only .003" thick for there isn't a lot of extra space in the roller channels. .......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I know well about the noise canceling attributes of UHMW tape and am also well aware that the tape fails from heat and from pressure of the steel wheels bearing down upon the tape over time.
PTFE tape has a much higher working temperature. I figured that I would wrap the two 608 bearings and the two 609 bearings with the tape to lessen friction and to hopefully quiet any metal to metal vibration.
As a bonus, the PTFE would save my new paint from being scuffed off by a steel roller!
So...... I wrapped the four steel bearings......
I was careful to not overlap the ends but to butt the tape ends perfectly on the bearings, this would eliminate any "thump, thump, thump" that a tape overlap would produce as the bearing rolls.......

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I also tried to line the roller groove with PTFE tape, this was a tedious task for the PTFE tape stretches, curls and is really hard to work with!
The outer upper track was easy!
The lower track was a total PITA with no room to work..... I gave up.
I did the rear track but with the bearings wrapped in PTFE and the outer track covered in PTFE that .009 (a little more when you count the adhesive on the tape, probably .011) thickness removed any clearance for the roller rotating.
I removed the PTFE from the rear track.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This left me with four PTFE covered bearings and the upper outer track covered in PTFE tape.

Here are the two 608 bearings wrapped with PTFE mounted onto the rear slider assembly......

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I abandoned my new steel grooved sliding door roller for my newly discovered Delrin 30mm x 6mm x 10mm x 22mm (groove depth diameter) grooved roller.

I had to file the bearing axle down to accept the 6mm bearing hub size. This is my only irreversible modification I made.


With this Delrin grooved roller, I veered off track and am admittedly totally experimenting. I also purchased the same Delrin grooved roller but with a 24mm groove depth in case my experiment fails! (Along with a third roller whose center bearing hole size is way too large! )

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I used plastic door edge/rain gutter moulding to cover the grooved bearing guide lip. The 22mm roller gives me the clearance I need for the roller to fit on top of the door edge moulding.
I honestly do not know what plastic this door edge is made of but I do know from experience that it withstands the hot searing heat of Summer Sun from previous use of the product......... On a Black truck's door edges of all things!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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Lacking shear physical strength (or proper technique, since revealed to me by ALIKA T3 ) the end of a night, door leaning against the Van waiting for installation....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My Delrin grooved roller worked great as did my new alternative bottom roller.

I had tried PTFE tape on the two 608 rear bearings in the hope of quieting them.
Sadly I've come to discover that the rear bearing noise is not unlike a drum with the rear quarter panel amplifying and resonating any noise into the Van.

I've located some alternative bearings which should be in next week.
I'll install them and see how it is........
http://www.vxb.com/Plastic-POM-608-Glass-Balls-8x22x7-Miniature-p/kit12489.htm

I Ordered a pair of POM 608 and a pair of POM 609 bearings.....
Details.......
Yes, I know, these bearings have an open ball race. That is why I passed on them initially, fear of dirt contamination!
But..... If they prove themselves to be quiet bed mates...... I'll figure something out to keep them clean!

*************
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Radial With Glass Bearing, Bearing is Polymer Raceways with glass. the dimensions are 8mm x 22mm x 7mm.

Item: POM 608 Bearing
Type: Plastic Radial With Glass Bearing
Material: POM (Polyoxymethylene) also know as Acetal
Inner Diameter: 8mm
Outer Diameter: 22mm
Width: 7mm
Size: 8 x 22 x 7 mm
Speed: 1,600 RPM
Load Capacity Dynamic: 42 LBS
Load Capacity Static: 33 LBS
Quantity: One bearing
**************


Doing editing and adding photos is making a long cumbersome post, The rest of this post I've cut and started again below a few comments made earlier......



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:55 am    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

Thanks for the installation tips! ^^^^

The bearings are off the shelf.

This bearing is but one of several noise reducing steps that I am experimenting with.

I'll post details once it is all reassembled and tested, probably later today.

Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

Hello!

where did you get these rollers made?

To install the door yourself:

The bottom section floor roller assembly goes in by itself, not attached to the door.

Then put the outside track roller first, there's a slight notch where it goes in and out of the track to give you clearance.

Then you can rest the door on the bottom roller assembly and put a bolt to hold it.

Then you can mount the top inside roller (ceiling track) Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

My missing bearings finally found their way here from Kearny!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


One of the three looks perfect!

I put the grooved roller bearing on the door assembly but for the life of me I cannot get the door back on by myself! Aligning the top roller and the bottom roller at the same time is FRUSTRATING!!!! Grrrr.....
I HATE asking for help! But tomorrow I'll have a co-worker give me a hand.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Sodo wrote:
This SHUFTI blog post has some good info that's very specific to this thread....

I like this line the best.....

"You know, this is the kind of project that 99.9% of people would look at and shake their heads, mutter “get a life” and then wander off to chat with someone else. It is only when i sit down and write this post does that realization sink in."

Funny stuff. But hey, that's what a hobby is! I'd sure like my door to be whisper-quiet. If only somebody can find a urethane wheel that can take the force (and scrubbing).


Great link! ^^^

The imagine that the fact that I should get a life is probably on many peoples minds about now! Shocked

Some like tennis, some stamp collecting, whatever...... I tinker with my Van and wonder.... "What if......"

Dave

After looking at all these ideas and arguments, I'm going to try removing all the bearings on my parts van, and replace each assembly with a block of UHMW (appropriately shaped)
...a little silicone grease should be silent and indestructible Very Happy
I'll let youknow
As an aside... my well maintained door running on UHMW tape has been pleasantly quiet for yrs Question
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Merian
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

what if you mounted the dB meter where you stand when opening the door?

it is sitting on an acoustically reflective surface (that vibrates to boot)

use a tripod - this will give you something to do while waiting for the package

unless... unless you want to spend that time looking for UHMW bearings Exclamation
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djkeev Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
This SHUFTI blog post has some good info that's very specific to this thread....

I like this line the best.....

"You know, this is the kind of project that 99.9% of people would look at and shake their heads, mutter “get a life” and then wander off to chat with someone else. It is only when i sit down and write this post does that realization sink in."

Funny stuff. But hey, that's what a hobby is! I'd sure like my door to be whisper-quiet. If only somebody can find a urethane wheel that can take the force (and scrubbing).


Great link! ^^^

The imagine that the fact that I should get a life is probably on many peoples minds about now! Shocked

Some like tennis, some stamp collecting, whatever...... I tinker with my Van and wonder.... "What if......"

Dave
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Merian
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Sliding Door Rollers/Bearings 1985 and Newer, Alternatives Reply with quote

might be fruitful to look at modern Honda mini-vans to see how they do it
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