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Locking Front Left Brakes
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scumerset
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:45 am    Post subject: Locking Front Left Brakes Reply with quote

I just put on drop spindles on Tuesday. I had both drums off and backing plates, but did not take off the brake lines. I tucked them in the front pan area where the master cylinder is. There was some twisting of the lines and maybe some momentary hanging. After putting everything back together I noticed my pedal was a little weak. To add some history, last month I put in a new MC, soft lines and wheel cylinders. The wheel cylinders I got from Orielly's and tonight I matched them up to the old ones and the new ones are a little taller. They put the shoes out to the point where at zero on the stars I get the drag I need. Two or three clicks locks the drum. With this, I had no problems before putting in the new spindles. On the way home from the local VW club meet that night I started to hear a scraping noise from that left front wheel. The further I drove the worse it got. 150 yards from the house it was constant. I pulled the drums off tonight and adjusted the shoes. I did notice the wheel cylinder pistons could be pushed down to allow a little more room for the shoes. I put the wheel back on and it rolled as free as ever. But as soon as I depressed the brake pedal, the drum locked again. The right front has a little drag, but rolls good.
My question is, is it possible I have air in the lines somewhere and that could cause the wheel cylinder not to release? I know air in the system can cause brakes to be weak, but can it cause them to lock one wheel? Gonna try to bleed the system tomorrow, or if any of you have a better solution. If all else fails I have the old wheel cylinder, which worked fine, but was just old.
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dakdak
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:37 am    Post subject: Re: Locking Front Left Brakes Reply with quote

scumerset wrote:
I just put on drop spindles on Tuesday. I had both drums off and backing plates, but did not take off the brake lines. I tucked them in the front pan area where the master cylinder is. There was some twisting of the lines and maybe some momentary hanging. After putting everything back together I noticed my pedal was a little weak. To add some history, last month I put in a new MC, soft lines and wheel cylinders. The wheel cylinders I got from Orielly's and tonight I matched them up to the old ones and the new ones are a little taller. They put the shoes out to the point where at zero on the stars I get the drag I need. Two or three clicks locks the drum. With this, I had no problems before putting in the new spindles. On the way home from the local VW club meet that night I started to hear a scraping noise from that left front wheel. The further I drove the worse it got. 150 yards from the house it was constant. I pulled the drums off tonight and adjusted the shoes. I did notice the wheel cylinder pistons could be pushed down to allow a little more room for the shoes. I put the wheel back on and it rolled as free as ever. But as soon as I depressed the brake pedal, the drum locked again. The right front has a little drag, but rolls good.
My question is, is it possible I have air in the lines somewhere and that could cause the wheel cylinder not to release? I know air in the system can cause brakes to be weak, but can it cause them to lock one wheel? Gonna try to bleed the system tomorrow, or if any of you have a better solution. If all else fails I have the old wheel cylinder, which worked fine, but was just old.


Have you checked the return springs for the brake shoes? Are they broken or stretched? Have you got them installed incorrectly? The bigger spring should be closest to the wheel cylinder to help release the brakes after being depressed. This is what releases the brakes after being depressed. Air in the system won't do this. Air in the system will give you a soft pedal with little or no braking effect.

Hope this helps.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to be sure -- for the month after you changed the MC, hoses, and cylinders everything was working fine? It wasn't until you disassembled and reassembled the brakes that this issue started showing up?

I have not done my brakes yet, but IIRC the Bentley manual shows a few spots on the backing plate where you should add a small dab of grease to ensure free operation (return) of the shoes. That might help. Also, the hardware kits are pretty cheap so I'd go ahead and get those and change all the springs, and clean and grease the star adjuster too.
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Jgowin
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a good chance that if your lines were old that one of them may have been damaged while you were putting on your spindles, alot of the time a bad brake hose will not let the fluid exit the wheel cylinder.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, I'd replace the flex lines and flush/bleed them.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im placeing my Bett that you have an adjuster Problem possibly .
Old style or new style < wrong part !
Or if newer style the slott's are angled < turned wrong the adjuster will cause pre mature locking etc.
Another thing I find that people do is install the Shoe's wrong < backward's .
Look at manual pic for proper shoe posistion .
Also 2 different type's of shoe's < End of shoe's that goes into Adjuster !
Some are angled slott while older style are straight slott style < match shoes to adjuster etc. etc.
Goin on 40 year's of Brake's All Car's Truck's / Air I still look at the Manual pic to match my work against it .
Good practice before installing the Drumm .
Smoke / Coffee Break / Beer brake / Hold manual pic up and do quick Inspection shoes turned right , the Adjuster slott turned right , Spring installed right . Etc. Etc.
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scumerset
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last night it bugged me so bad I couldn't sleep. I went back to the garage and checked the soft line. I had replaced all the soft lines when I did the brakes before. It was on tight. Bled all the brakes. Made the drum even tighter. Still, the other 3 wheels turned freely. This morning I took off the drum. Shoes are on correctly. It has the angled adjuster and the tip of the shoe in the adjuster is angled. I released the bleed screw and pulled out both wheel cylinder pistons. Let all the fluid/air out and put everything back together. Re-bled and the wheel still locks. Gonna put on the old wheel cylinder and see if maybe my new one is faulty. It all worked fine before Evil or Very Mad [/quote]
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or just take the new one apart and check for rubber bits clogging up the line. I would not mix old/new brake hardware on the two sides.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since your gonna have to bleed your brakes anyway take the hose off blow compressed air though it, if you can get air though it swap it with the other side and see if the issue follows it. I have had issues with hoses before, I have had them cause the car to pull to one side while braking and lock a wheel down.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like a faulty brake hose. When a wheel cylinder goes bad, usually, they just don't apply any pressure due to the rubber plunger being damaged or the cylinder casing being cracked. Your backing plate would be soaked with brake fluid if this were the case in either scenario. The odds that the cylinder is hanging up on its own is unlikely.

Try taking the hose off and blowing some air through it from both ends. It might clear out.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not suggest getting brake components from the chain FLAPS. Napa, maybe, but not the others. They're notorious for poor-quality parts, and unless you know exactly what you're looking at I'd not rely too much on what they tell you about quality and fit for your particular car. You just introduce too much variability that way and don't know if you have bad parts, wrong parts, or what have you.

Get good quality parts from the VW-specific vendors and support those who support our hobby.
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scumerset
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took off the left front rubber hose and metal line and made sure they were not clogged. Adjusted the shoes again and then I bled the system. All other wheels roll free, but left front wheel still locks. The top pad is what is getting hung up. It doesn't seem to be the wheel cylinder, but the inner "dip" in the brake plate. When the wheel cylinder pushes the pad out it gets hung over that "lip". After I remove the drum, I can pull back on the brake pad, it slips back and brings the wheel cylinder piston also back into position. I then put the wheel back together, it rolls free, but when I depress the brake pedal, it locks again. Any more ideas?

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just did some rereading on your post, what brand are your wheel cylinders? I used a wheel cylinder from auto zone(all of these places pretty much sell the same junk) and had issues with my brakes as well. The gaps that the shoes ride in were considerable deeper than the original and are not cut at an angle like the original. Your shoes maybe sliding side ways and rubbing on one side of your drum.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scumerset wrote:
I took off the left front rubber hose and metal line and made sure they were not clogged. Adjusted the shoes again and then I bled the system. All other wheels roll free, but left front wheel still locks. The top pad is what is getting hung up. It doesn't seem to be the wheel cylinder, but the inner "dip" in the brake plate. When the wheel cylinder pushes the pad out it gets hung over that "lip". After I remove the drum, I can pull back on the brake pad, it slips back and brings the wheel cylinder piston also back into position. I then put the wheel back together, it rolls free, but when I depress the brake pedal, it locks again. Any more ideas?

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In your first post, you say the wheel cylinders are a little taller. By how much? You may have had the wrong ones all along. Super Beetle, '68-, I don't know. I for sure don't remember ever having the adjusters that tight, they're ususally 6-10 clicks even when everything is new. Be sure your spindles, drums, bearings, shoes, hardware and backing plates are correctly matched.
There are three stamped, raised pads on the backing plates for each brake shoe to be supported by, and your pictures are unclear if they are flat and level. They are only big enough to work when everything is correct and within specs. They are often worn at an angle or stepped from the shoes and drums being worn beyond their wear limits. This could cause new shoes to slip out too far and bind or rub the drum at an angle. Adjust the brakes so they just drag and remove the drum. Are the shoes square and perpendicular to the backing plate? Is the shoe riding in the aproximate middle of the support? If they are not, something is wrong.
It could be too that your drums are worn out or have been machined beyond the maximum diameter. Have them measured the Max Dia should be printed on the drum. If they are too far oversize, you are having to adjust the shoes out too far, and this could cause the shoe to expand too far and go over the edge and get stuck.
Be sure that your wheel bearings are correctly adjusted also to obtain correct brake adjustment and function.
Hope this helps.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you put the old cylinder back on just as a baseline measurement? That way, you can rule out the fluid and lines.
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scumerset
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Extra info... The car is a 67. When I put on the drop spindles I had to put on a 69 on inboard bearing and I am also having to add 69 on tie rod ends. Not that this has anything to do with braking, just more info.
Now on to brakes... Somewhere along the way 4 lug drums were installed. On the rears it seems to have the old pads. On the front the pads look newer. (I do not know the entire history of this car, so bear with me.) Is there any diference between 67 and 69 wheel cylinders or pads? Was the drum size on a 67 bigger? So if I have 67 parts on a 69 on drum would they bind? Also, the new wheel cylinder looked bigger, cause the piston was pushed out when the pad was hung up. After checking again the new and old are the same heigth. As far as brand, I hate to say, but I don't know for sure. It's whatever brand Orielly's carries. For now I am going to check the right to see how it is set up. It works fine, so if I can get the left to match, hopefully I can be done with this. If not I'll put the old Vargas on both right and left front. They are old, but still function well. I also remember befrore the adding the new wheel cylinders, getting about 10 clicks from zero, till the pads locked the drum.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but it's "shoes", when referring to drum brakes. "Pads" are what go on disk brakes. Wink
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scumerset
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it's came down to this, Bart you were right. I noticed the "shoes" were sitting at an angle tilted towards the brake plate. After taking off the new wheel cylinders and putting the old wheel cylinders on each side, the shoes sit nice and level. Pretty much panned out to ill fitting after market parts. The new ones were less fat and did not seat the shoes properly. I also now have the 10 or so clicks till the drum binds.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad my post was helpful. It's usually the best idea to buy the best parts from the most reputable and knowledgable vendors... any extra expense is worth avoiding all this kind of brain damage and wasted time.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Breake hanging up Reply with quote

Had the same problem came to find out it was the drum had worn to the point that the break shoe hung up on the back plate.
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