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reivertribe Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2007 Posts: 85 Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:06 pm Post subject: Black Cat and running rich |
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OK folks, I have been searching and reading, but need some help from those that are wiser than I.
1985 GL
1.9L
Recently I was chasing down a rough idle/missing/bucking and occasional stalling issue. I have removed the Throttle Body, which after cleaning the funk out of, found a 3/16th hole drilled into the butterfly (repaired that) , repaired my TPS and adjusted it and idle speed. I have new plugs and wires, inspected the Dizzy cap. Replaced the TempII sensor and have replaced all of the rubber vacuum hoses. And I have cleaned all of the grounds. All of these maintenance/repairs seemed to have cured the above mentioned issue. But, now the van is running very rich, and the idle has developed a strange sound.
I was under the van yesterday while running to see if I had any exhaust leaks (none found) but noticed the Cat is dark gray/black. Pulled the O2 sensor which was sooty/black(maybe dead). The sound of the idle has changed since the above repairs as well. It has changed from a constant purrrrrrrrr to a rhythmic purrrr-purrr-purrrrr-purrrrr. When driving, 1st and 2nd are smooth through the RPM range but when in the higher RPM's in 3rd or 4th, then van start to pulsate/shake, I lose power, and have to down shift to get back up to speed. I am almost not able to run in 4th unless on a steady flat grade.
I'm at a loss now as where to look next. My neighbor (Vanagon owner) suggested it may be the AFM and needs to have the arm tweeked to swing on a new track. Could I have a fouled/bad injector or clogged cat? I'm not sure what the next step is. I suppose I'll remove the cat and inspect. Can a vacuum leak in the system cause these symtpoms?
Does the ECU try to compensate for a vacumm leak by dumping in more fuel? Sorry if this seems obvious, I'm still learning these vans systems. I'm beginning to get frustrated now, not being able to figure this out. Before I go and do something ill advised, like cracking the AFM open and bending things, do those more experienced than I, have any insight into this issue???
Thanks for any input. _________________ 1985 Vanagon GL 1.9L "the Colonel" |
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morymob Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007 Posts: 4683 Location: east-tn
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Someone recently had a cat plugging intermittenly also unplug oxxy sensor and see if idle changes and meter cable to ecu for a short,take a drive with unhooked, a shorted wire will cause rich loading up. U can meter at the plug on the afm, the afm resistance for a smooth reading by moving the flap. Spray some carb cleaner around all vac etc conn for any speed chaange, also the big one where afm connects to plenum. Did u verify with meter tps open/closing?Verify fuel press, can make a cheap one from a tire guage and short hose clamped to the 'T' a press reg, remove vac hose from reg and press will go up. Let us know how it goes. |
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reivertribe Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2007 Posts: 85 Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the input. I'll be jumping back into it this afternoon. _________________ 1985 Vanagon GL 1.9L "the Colonel" |
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deepseafortydog Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2010 Posts: 27 Location: virginia
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Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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I'd be interested to know what you found too. I am not trying to hi-jack the thread, but I'm experiencing the same issues with my '85.
I did the capacitor install on the AFM - to fix the "vanagon syndrome." Seeing your other posts, you seem to be mechanically inclined enough to solder the capacitor into the spot. This improved my idle and surging issues significantly and the link where I purchased mine is here - http://www.kenneke.com/ (look at left side of page). Install was quick and painless. Install instructions here: http://www.members.shaw.ca/bilbo/WBafm.html
My issue still includes what you have but I also have extremely poor fuel economy (8-9MPG) I am hoping to sort the TPS out next and move on to fuel injectors... but any help would be greatly appreciated. _________________ 87 Syncro Transporter
85 Vanagon GL 4spd w/ 2.1L
84 Vanagon GL automatic
00 Jetta TDI "slightly modified" |
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reivertribe Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2007 Posts: 85 Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry I never followed up on this thread. It has been an ongoing issue, but one that I have pretty much fixed. I apologize in advance if this is long-winded, but this was my mode of trouble shooting.
1) So, I repaired my Throttle Body, although there is wear on the inside from the butterfly rubbing the TB all these years. But, seems to hold a fairly steady idle now. I may try the JB Weld fix some day.
2) I found excessive wear to my TPS (throttle position switch) that was not allowing proper operation. Fixed that, and adjusted per Bentley, functions flawlessly now. Here's my post for my fix. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=455400&highlight=
3) I was having a vacuum leak at the Throttle Body gasket/seal from removing/installing so many times. I seem to have fixed this issue by seating the gasket more carefully when installing, and torquing down good on the bolts.
4) Installed new Temp2 sensor.
5) I replaced all of my 26 year old vacuum lines with brand new line.
6) Put in new spark plugs.
7) checked Auxiliary Air regulator per Bentley
8 ) Checked Fuel Regulator per Bentley
The issue persisted. So I dug in deeper.
Decided to check the entire injection system, AFC system with the voltmeter. If you have a Bentley. Go to page 24.20 and follow the procedures. It was following this testing procedure that I found that I had no resistance to one of my injectors.
With the engine running, I proceeded to remove the yellow plug from the suspect injector (#3 cylinder). It made no change in engine idle. Removed plug from adjacent injector (#4 cylinder), and engine started to idle very poorly. Reversed plugs on both of those injectors. And repeated the same plug removal. Symptom switched cylinder/injector. When I wiggled the wires for the suspect injector plug, I could get resistance, and fuel would spray at injector. It is at this point that the strange sound from the exhaust began, and I could smell fuel in the exhaust.
It should have been obvious at this point but in my ongoing frustrated state of mind. I neglected to consider the plug wires or distributor cap/rotor.
The Bentley was my bedtime reading each night for several days. Which helped me think about the systems of the car better. So, I found page 28.31 in the Bentley and followed the procedures for checking proper resistance of the Rotor and spark plug wires. Like I said this should have been a no brainer, and is a very easy thing to do. Turns out, on the set of what I THOUGHT were good wires, indeed had a faulty one in the bunch, or had gone bad at some point after I installed them. They were of Autolite brand. Interestingly enough, the bad spark plug wire was on the same cylinder that had the bad injector plug.
So, I had been essentially running on three cylinders, for some time with no spark and no fuel delivery to one cylinder. That explained the poor power. Then, I was running on 3 cylinders + the fourth having fuel dumped in and not combusting. Poor power and seemingly running rich. So, it was entering the exhaust stream and heating the cat excessively. Since my local FLAPS does not carry Bosch parts, and wanted an absurd amount for their top of the line brand. I ordered from an online vendor, a new set of Bosch wires for half the price that FLAPS wanted, and a new O2 sensor.
I installed the new plug wires and coil wire. Installed new O2 sensor, and started the engine. HOLY FRIGGIN $#!% !!! We have smooth, quiet, stable idle!! And the fuel smell nearly gone. Once warmed up and ECU trying to smell the exhaust via the brand new O2 sensor I noticed fuel smell still.
Turns out I have an intermittent grounding issue on my O2 sensor coax wire leading into the ECU. I am still working on this, as I have not had as much time lately to stand behind the van and mutter obscenities at it. But soon, very soon!
As it stands, I have no more rough idle, no more bucking, lack of power or overly rich running conditions. But every now and again, at seemingly random times, the van will just shut off. Mostly, right before I come to a stop. This, I will be looking into as well. Maybe Ignition switch?
Anyhow, hope this may help you out some. If you don't have a Bentley...I highly recommend one, is very good! I think my intermittent bucking strange idle, cutting out issues were mostly TPS/Throttle Body related. And with the Injector wire. But I did find other issues, and fixed/replaced things that needed it. Thanks for holding me accountable so as I could update this thread. _________________ 1985 Vanagon GL 1.9L "the Colonel" |
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deepseafortydog Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2010 Posts: 27 Location: virginia
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks a bunch for the info. I just worked my TPS - tried to fill the holes with plastic like you did, but don't have a drill bit smaller than 1/16, so I ended up cutting a small piece of vacuum hose in the shape of a donut and placing that over (and around) the small plastic piece of the switch. That fixed the switch. (wish I had pics to add now...)
I am still having issues and noticed one injector with lower resistance (14 ohms vs. 16), so I will replace that one. Hopefully that will fix it!
I do have a Bentley and will go through the other procedures you recommended.
Best of luck and thanks again for all the great info! _________________ 87 Syncro Transporter
85 Vanagon GL 4spd w/ 2.1L
84 Vanagon GL automatic
00 Jetta TDI "slightly modified" |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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reivertribe wrote: |
Turns out I have an intermittent grounding issue on my O2 sensor coax wire leading into the ECU. I am still working on this, as I have not had as much time lately to stand behind the van and mutter obscenities at it. But soon, very soon! Twisted Evil |
Maybe.
BUT, the 02 sensor needs to be real hot to work well. There is a thread about putting a (later) heated O2 sensor in.
What you might want to do is to put an 02 sensor monitor in. This is a cheap single IC unit with LEDs. You can see just what your 02 sensor is doing by looking at the pretty lights.
reivertribe wrote: |
As it stands, I have no more rough idle, no more bucking, lack of power or overly rich running conditions. But every now and again, at seemingly random times, the van will just shut off. Mostly, right before I come to a stop. This, I will be looking into as well. Maybe Ignition switch? |
It is always a good idea to replace that crappy ignition switch or have spare.
It can also be the Digital Idle Stabilizer (DIS) box. Bypass it and see how it goes. They used to die all the time.
Don't discount a poor connection to the hall sensor in the dizzy, too. I have had fingers in the plug in connector break half off.
My van 85 used to die every now and then. This is a mixture thing. Either the 02 sensor is slow or your mixture is just just a tad lean and your old system just can not correct fast enough.
I finally got it to stop doing that dying trick after a careful tweak of the AFM. You are at the final stage of tuning your engine. Look for my posts about doing final adjust of the AFM with a "pot" (potentiometer.) _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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deepseafortydog Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2010 Posts: 27 Location: virginia
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Since my local FLAPS does not carry Bosch parts, and wanted an absurd amount for their top of the line brand. I ordered from an online vendor, a new set of Bosch wires for half the price that FLAPS wanted, and a new O2 sensor. |
I'd love to know where you got those Bosch wires!!! _________________ 87 Syncro Transporter
85 Vanagon GL 4spd w/ 2.1L
84 Vanagon GL automatic
00 Jetta TDI "slightly modified" |
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RCB Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2005 Posts: 4143 Location: San Francisco-Bay Area
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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deepseafortydog wrote: |
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Since my local FLAPS does not carry Bosch parts, and wanted an absurd amount for their top of the line brand. I ordered from an online vendor, a new set of Bosch wires for half the price that FLAPS wanted, and a new O2 sensor. |
I'd love to know where you got those Bosch wires!!! |
Try Bus Depot or Go-Westy or Van Cafe or Autohaus AZ or Bus Boys. All of these are honest and trusted vendors ( Im sure I missed a few..sorry) who carry parts and pieces for Vanagons.
Good Luck |
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reivertribe Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2007 Posts: 85 Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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RCB wrote: |
deepseafortydog wrote: |
Quote: |
Since my local FLAPS does not carry Bosch parts, and wanted an absurd amount for their top of the line brand. I ordered from an online vendor, a new set of Bosch wires for half the price that FLAPS wanted, and a new O2 sensor. |
I'd love to know where you got those Bosch wires!!! |
Try Bus Depot or Go-Westy or Van Cafe or Autohaus AZ or Bus Boys. All of these are honest and trusted vendors ( Im sure I missed a few..sorry) who carry parts and pieces for Vanagons.
Good Luck |
I ordered mine from Auothaus AZ, they were on sale at the time I needed them. But any of the vendors are a good sourcre. _________________ 1985 Vanagon GL 1.9L "the Colonel" |
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