5 speed in 82 Diesel Vanagon

MarkWard · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject:

Your top gear, final drive ratio and tire diameter determine your mph/kph for a given rpm. By going taller in any of these you lower the rpm that the engine is turning for a given speed. It is not really about the "load" on the engine. Actually going taller can increase the load on the engine. Sort of like being in too tall a gear on a bicycle. You have more top speed, but your legs are killing you. Max torque on a stock TDI is around 2200 rpm. Max hp is around 3800 rpm. The TDI seems happiest in a Vanagon between 2600 and 2800 rpm. You are above the max torque, but well below the max hp. Your gearing and tires will dictate what speed that is.
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bridgetroll13 · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:08 pm Post subject:

Whilst the AAZ was being fixed I had to put the stock 1.6 na back in. 5th gear did not get used a whole lot as it didn't have the oomph to push it.
There was a 5 speed offering in the diesel but 5th gear was about the same as 4th in the diesel 4 speed.

Erik

DAIZEE · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:03 pm Post subject:

I'd love a 5 spd. I've always had them. When I asked about them in the Vanagon, it was explained to me you don't get more power, you just take some of the load off the engine at steady high speed. Sounds about right to me. I'd still like one.

There are kits.

Someone is going to consider importing the conversion from Europe.

I oh so hope I get to Vt, Maine, Maritimes and to the Rock! Really really want to get to the meeting at Scoga River (?) Supposed to be getting engine transplant July 19th - 21st. Got all my fingers, toes and legs crossed!!!! Rolling Eyes

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'09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold)

bridgetroll13 · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:46 am Post subject:

Small world indeed; we too were staying on Mt. Desert. The only place where I've seen more Westys in one spot is the annual Granny Groses busses put on by the Full Moon Bus Club.

My Westy is my daily driver so I'm perpetually working out the bugs (or fighting with them).

Erik

MarkWard · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:52 am Post subject:

Maine was the only state where we actually saw some Vanagons. We were camping in Acadia State Park, but had been walking around that day in Bar Harbor. That night two guys tracked us down in the campground. They had seen the TDI emblem and though it was a joke, but got looking underneath and saw the Borla exhaust and realized something was up. They got the camp site off of the mirror tag and came and found us. Small world.

It wasn't so much the trip to Maine, but the time spent driving in the Van. My gears are always turning in my head when going down the road. We are fortunate to be able to let our Vanagon rest when we are not traveling. Maybe a trip to town on Saturdays, but not much else. So I don't get a lot of daily input from it. We have daily drivers for everything else. Once I get the AC installed, it might make a better candidate for more local driving. It is hot and humid right now. In my mind, I am going to reuse the R134 VW compressor and possibly the condensor that I got from a 90 vanagon in the junk yard. I have to also considered upgrading to a later radiator style along with the rad fan. For the interior I am thinking of going with an aftermarket in dash unit. Deleting my stock heater core. A company in Tampa Florida called Nostalgic air sells AC components for the aftermarket. Anything would be an improvement. mark
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bridgetroll13 · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:07 am Post subject:

Interesting that your trip to Maine convinced you to improve the mounting set up. We also have taken a summer trip to Maine for several years running (sadly not this year). It was after the first trip there that we decided to acquire our Westy. Ironically my first trip to Maine was back in 1969 in a family friend's 1965 split window Westy.
Our Maine journey last year required the use of a borrowed "freeway flyer" 4 speed as the 4 -5 slider (3-4 in a 4 speed) blew up once reinstalled behind the freshly rebuilt AAZ. The clutch never forgave me for the higher 1st gear.
I am envious of your ability to weld. I have an arc set-up but have only done gas welding and free time to learn and practice is the only thing more scarce that money.

Erik

P.S. very curious to hear about your upcoming AC install.

MarkWard · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:44 am Post subject:

Erik, I understand living with what you have. I was so happy with the way my conversion worked out in the beginning, I was willing to overlook a lot. It was not until I got back from my 2 week trip to Maine last summer, that I made up my mind that the install needed to be improved. I am also planning on adding AC and needed to refabricate the r/s adapter and modify the r/s carrier as well. It is hard to see looking at the pictures, but I cut and reindexed the r/s carrier to locate the rear mounting further outboard. I am lucky because I have the skills to weld and fabricate as needed. Enjoy the ride. On a side note, I had Daryl build me a 4 speed transmission from scratch with a 4.14 r&p with a .77 4th. Verifying with the GPS and Scan Gauge, I see about 2900 rpm at 70mph on 215/65/16 tires. I am getting my tach signal from the ECU. mark
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bridgetroll13 · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:35 am Post subject:

That is a nifty set-up too. I gleaned a lot if info from a lengthy post of Frank's regarding oil pan baffles. Impressive stuff.

As for the mounts, I had considered using a simple piece of angle attached to the stock bars which would allow the Volvo pieces to use their vertical mounting stud. Unfortunately my R&D budget is severely limited so for now I live with the stock set-up.

Erik

tozovr · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:34 am Post subject:

vintagemotion · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:32 am Post subject:

MarkWard · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:26 am Post subject:

Erik, I was never able to get a definitive answer on which Volvo model mounts work. I came across some photos that Frank Grunthaner had of adapting the 82 diesel carriers to utilize the saab mounts here on Samba. In one of the pictures I was able to determine the saab part number. In the end, I was not able to adapt the 82 diesel mount brackets to work with the Saab mounts as pictured and ended up cutting the vw brackets off completely and starting from scratch. Here is a picture of Frank's design. While useable, my angles were off because my adapters are custom. I also wanted to better support the saab mount as it was orginally designed for. mark

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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bridgetroll13 · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:09 am Post subject:

I'd heard of people using Volvo hydraulic mounts from the automatic 740's. That's a lovely set-up.

Erik

bridgetroll13 · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:07 am Post subject:

I'm guessing that VW's expectation was that it would be used as a "creeper" so there is a spring that you need to pull against to get into the first / reverse gate (not to be confused with the additional spring detent you push down on to get into reverse). The linkage is inclined to need a moment to get from the 1st / reverse gate to the 2nd / 3rd gate.

Erik

MarkWard · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:05 am Post subject:

Erik, congrats on getting back on the road. The vibrations can be cured, but will require some more fabrication. I lived with the vibrations for two major road trips. I believed it could be improved, but the simple things did not give me the result I wanted. After doing some reading, I installed Saab engine mounts to my stock diesel carrier bars and added a torque mount to limit the engine up and down movement. I don't even know the engine is back there now. You can search the gallery for my user name to see more. mark

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vintagemotion · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:53 am Post subject:

I have not taken my bus on the road, therfore I’m curios about the shifting problem from first to second ??
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82 orange Diesel Westy
AHU conversion (mechanical with stock JX pump)
5 Speed ASS
CLK Wheels 215/70/16

bridgetroll13 · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:34 am Post subject:

My sense is that your calculations are correct (the diesel tach conversion to work off of the "W" terminal on the alternator project hasn't worked its way to the top of the pile yet Wink

)
It seems happy to drive along at 65 or 70 all day long without complaint. Above that there are some sympathetic vibrations that get really noisy.

My biggest problem with the 1st to 2nd shift is the people behind me driving while texting (or the cops looking at the computer).

Erik

vintagemotion · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:26 am Post subject:

Hello Eric,

Thanks for the reply. Your configuration is very similar to mine. I have 215/70/16 tires that are 10% taller than original .
The ASS has a 4.83 over all ratio that with bigger tires will give me 38% RPM reduction (vs. original diesel setup).
The AAP configuration reduces RPM by 48% verses original (with 10% taller tires)

If my calculations are right the following RPM’s at 70MPH

Original 4563 RPM (down hill or freefall with stock motor)
ASS with tall tires 3300 RPM
AAP with tall tires 3120 RPM (Eric please confirm if this matches your experience)

Temporarily my AHU engine has a JX pump and no turbo (need to do the routing) surely I will need the 1 Granny Gear.
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82 orange Diesel Westy
AHU conversion (mechanical with stock JX pump)
5 Speed ASS
CLK Wheels 215/70/16

bridgetroll13 · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:32 am Post subject:

I have an '82 diesel Westy. I put in an AAP 5 speed (4:57 r/p) and an AAZ 1.9 turbo. I'm running 215/75 15's. I did have to use the later style bars to move the engine back; the trans came with its stock mount and I used that. I didn't have a problem with hose lengths (although P/O kluges make it difficult to know if it would have been a problem with the stock lengths). I used the earlier oil fill tube. Yes, first gear is low but starting in second needs more clutch slipping than seems good for it. I got the front portion of the shift linkage with the trans. Poor packaging on part of the seller caused me to need to find a replacement for the rear section which turns out to be identical to the later 4 spd. I needed to bend the original shift linkage bushing (above the fuel tank) out of the way and use the later style item which mounts to the bulkhead behind the tank. Yes, shifting out of first is kind of a pain but all in all I'm pleased with the results.

Now if I could just kill off that "kitchen rust" I'd be good to go.

Erik

80qtdi · Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:07 pm Post subject:

Just an fyi, I have the DK trans with stock 1st and 2nd, and a 1.14 3rd and the .70 4th coupled to an AHU with some power enhancements and it's able to pull our Westfalia 2wd up an 8% grade from 40 mph at 1600 rpms with little to no smoke.

Jon

uncommonvw · Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:30 pm Post subject:

I have a 5 speed gas transmission (AAP) in my 1990 Doka with a 1.6TD.

IMHO, you will probably not be any better off with a 5 speed. First gear is so short it only gets you going to about 15-20km/h before you have to shift into 2nd. It's not the easiest shift to make either. The rest of the gearing is alot like the 4 speed transmissions.

You would be better off using the money somewhere else. Upgrade to larger tires/rims maybe.


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