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5 speed in 82 Diesel Vanagon
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vintagemotion
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Location: Kleve Germany; Atlanta Georgia
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject: 5 speed in 82 Diesel Vanagon Reply with quote

I have a 5 speed transmissions out of a later 1.7 Turbo diesel Vanagon.
The transmission code is ASS. I want to make sure that I have all parts before I start the installation in my 1982 Diesel Vanagon (AHU conversion).

Here my questions:

1. How different is the shifter, shifter linkage and mounting bracket compared to my original 4 speed?
2, How can I modify the 4 speed parts that I have now

Thanks for advice.
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82 orange Diesel Westy
AHU conversion (mechanical with stock JX pump)
5 Speed ASS
CLK Wheels 215/70/16
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 5 speed in 82 Diesel Vanagon Reply with quote

1. Very different.
2. You can't just modify, you will need some other parts along with modifications.

Mark


vintagemotion wrote:
I have a 5 speed transmissions out of a later 1.7 Turbo diesel Vanagon.
The transmission code is ASS. I want to make sure that I have all parts before I start the installation in my 1982 Diesel Vanagon (AHU conversion).

Here my questions:

1. How different is the shifter, shifter linkage and mounting bracket compared to my original 4 speed?
2, How can I modify the 4 speed parts that I have now

Thanks for advice.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll need to swap to the later engine carrier bars as the 5-speed causes the engine to be mounted 2 inches rearward.
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vintagemotion
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this super website for the ones that read German. There are pictures of the differences between 4 and 5 speeds before and after 9/82

In short:
1. Get engine bars from after 9/82 (or modify location see picture in link)
2. Shifter from 5 speed (or grind off half the reverse gear lock pin - otherwise the shifter has to be pushed down to get into first)
3. Get shift rod from later model (The shift rod could possibly be modified but I have not found out how)

http://www.wonic.homepage.t-online.de/faq.htm#getriebe

It would be great to hear from someone else who has done this conversion. If I cannot get this to work Im will be looking for a DK tranny!
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82 orange Diesel Westy
AHU conversion (mechanical with stock JX pump)
5 Speed ASS
CLK Wheels 215/70/16


Last edited by vintagemotion on Wed May 12, 2010 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 82 Vanagon diesel 4 speed has a 3 section shift rod running under the vanagon. The middle section is supported by a bushing above the fuel tank. The later linkage uses two rods and has a support bushing located behind the fuel tank. I believe it is a better design. The chassis is drilled for the later bushing, so it is an easy upgrade. I was lucky enough to rob the entire shift linkage from a u pickem up the street and purchased all new bushings from the dealer. Must have been the last ones from what I read. I bent the original shift rod bushing support bracket up and out of the way. I think if you could come up with the last section of shift rod that connects to the 5 speed along with the trans support bushing and housing you could get the rest of the original 82 shift rods to work with some slight modifications. Good snag.
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vintagemotion
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:22 pm    Post subject: The 5 speed drivetrain is installed with lessons learned Reply with quote

1. It was an easy process using the engine cradle from 84 and later bus but the original mounts could have been modified.

2. The old transmission mount cannot be used

3. It's the little things that can cause trouble: moving the engine 50mm backward makes the throttle and choke cable (M-TDI) to short, water hoses tight, cable for shutoff solenoid to short, clutch hydraulic hose to short, no big deal and cheap to fix but it ads work.

4. Shifter linkage: I will use mainly my old setup with the exception of the rear 300mm that should fit (welded)from a late 4 speed. (we will see when I find one)
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82 orange Diesel Westy
AHU conversion (mechanical with stock JX pump)
5 Speed ASS
CLK Wheels 215/70/16
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the caveman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather than changing the whole trans ,why not keep the 4 speed you have. An AHU will have enough torque to negate needing a close ratio 5 speed. You will have to get a tall ring and pinion, i don't know if one is available for the 4 speed, but you may be able to save your self some trouble.
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uncommonvw
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 5 speed gas transmission (AAP) in my 1990 Doka with a 1.6TD.

IMHO, you will probably not be any better off with a 5 speed. First gear is so short it only gets you going to about 15-20km/h before you have to shift into 2nd. It's not the easiest shift to make either. The rest of the gearing is alot like the 4 speed transmissions.

You would be better off using the money somewhere else. Upgrade to larger tires/rims maybe.
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80qtdi
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just an fyi, I have the DK trans with stock 1st and 2nd, and a 1.14 3rd and the .70 4th coupled to an AHU with some power enhancements and it's able to pull our Westfalia 2wd up an 8% grade from 40 mph at 1600 rpms with little to no smoke.

Jon
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bridgetroll13
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an '82 diesel Westy. I put in an AAP 5 speed (4:57 r/p) and an AAZ 1.9 turbo. I'm running 215/75 15's. I did have to use the later style bars to move the engine back; the trans came with its stock mount and I used that. I didn't have a problem with hose lengths (although P/O kluges make it difficult to know if it would have been a problem with the stock lengths). I used the earlier oil fill tube. Yes, first gear is low but starting in second needs more clutch slipping than seems good for it. I got the front portion of the shift linkage with the trans. Poor packaging on part of the seller caused me to need to find a replacement for the rear section which turns out to be identical to the later 4 spd. I needed to bend the original shift linkage bushing (above the fuel tank) out of the way and use the later style item which mounts to the bulkhead behind the tank. Yes, shifting out of first is kind of a pain but all in all I'm pleased with the results.

Now if I could just kill off that "kitchen rust" I'd be good to go.

Erik
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vintagemotion
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Eric,

Thanks for the reply. Your configuration is very similar to mine. I have 215/70/16 tires that are 10% taller than original .
The ASS has a 4.83 over all ratio that with bigger tires will give me 38% RPM reduction (vs. original diesel setup).
The AAP configuration reduces RPM by 48% verses original (with 10% taller tires)

If my calculations are right the following RPMs at 70MPH

Original 4563 RPM (down hill or freefall with stock motor)
ASS with tall tires 3300 RPM
AAP with tall tires 3120 RPM (Eric please confirm if this matches your experience)

Temporarily my AHU engine has a JX pump and no turbo (need to do the routing) surely I will need the 1 Granny Gear.
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82 orange Diesel Westy
AHU conversion (mechanical with stock JX pump)
5 Speed ASS
CLK Wheels 215/70/16
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bridgetroll13
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My sense is that your calculations are correct (the diesel tach conversion to work off of the "W" terminal on the alternator project hasn't worked its way to the top of the pile yet Wink)
It seems happy to drive along at 65 or 70 all day long without complaint. Above that there are some sympathetic vibrations that get really noisy.

My biggest problem with the 1st to 2nd shift is the people behind me driving while texting (or the cops looking at the computer).

Erik
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vintagemotion
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not taken my bus on the road, therfore Im curios about the shifting problem from first to second ??
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82 orange Diesel Westy
AHU conversion (mechanical with stock JX pump)
5 Speed ASS
CLK Wheels 215/70/16
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erik, congrats on getting back on the road. The vibrations can be cured, but will require some more fabrication. I lived with the vibrations for two major road trips. I believed it could be improved, but the simple things did not give me the result I wanted. After doing some reading, I installed Saab engine mounts to my stock diesel carrier bars and added a torque mount to limit the engine up and down movement. I don't even know the engine is back there now. You can search the gallery for my user name to see more. mark

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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1990 Vanagon Camper project Syncro conversion.
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bridgetroll13
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm guessing that VW's expectation was that it would be used as a "creeper" so there is a spring that you need to pull against to get into the first / reverse gate (not to be confused with the additional spring detent you push down on to get into reverse). The linkage is inclined to need a moment to get from the 1st / reverse gate to the 2nd / 3rd gate.

Erik
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bridgetroll13
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd heard of people using Volvo hydraulic mounts from the automatic 740's. That's a lovely set-up.

Erik
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erik, I was never able to get a definitive answer on which Volvo model mounts work. I came across some photos that Frank Grunthaner had of adapting the 82 diesel carriers to utilize the saab mounts here on Samba. In one of the pictures I was able to determine the saab part number. In the end, I was not able to adapt the 82 diesel mount brackets to work with the Saab mounts as pictured and ended up cutting the vw brackets off completely and starting from scratch. Here is a picture of Frank's design. While useable, my angles were off because my adapters are custom. I also wanted to better support the saab mount as it was orginally designed for. mark

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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vintagemotion
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bridgetroll13 wrote:
I'm guessing that VW's expectation was that it would be used as a "creeper" so there is a spring that you need to pull against to get into the first / reverse gate (not to be confused with the additional spring detent you push down on to get into reverse). The linkage is inclined to need a moment to get from the 1st / reverse gate to the 2nd / 3rd gate.

Erik


I got the 5 speed shifter box that came with the transmission. This does not have a lock for first gear like reverse.
On some German VW boards I read that when using the 4 speed shifter box you need to cut off a tap otherwise the reverse lock wills interfere with shifting.
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82 orange Diesel Westy
AHU conversion (mechanical with stock JX pump)
5 Speed ASS
CLK Wheels 215/70/16
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tozovr
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vintagemotion wrote:
bridgetroll13 wrote:
I'm guessing that VW's expectation was that it would be used as a "creeper" so there is a spring that you need to pull against to get into the first / reverse gate (not to be confused with the additional spring detent you push down on to get into reverse). The linkage is inclined to need a moment to get from the 1st / reverse gate to the 2nd / 3rd gate.

Erik


I got the 5 speed shifter box that came with the transmission. This does not have a lock for first gear like reverse.
On some German VW boards I read that when using the 4 speed shifter box you need to cut off a tap otherwise the reverse lock wills interfere with shifting.


yeah, on my DX you just go down and left...just like any other dogleg tranny (MB 190e 16V )
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bridgetroll13
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a nifty set-up too. I gleaned a lot if info from a lengthy post of Frank's regarding oil pan baffles. Impressive stuff.

As for the mounts, I had considered using a simple piece of angle attached to the stock bars which would allow the Volvo pieces to use their vertical mounting stud. Unfortunately my R&D budget is severely limited so for now I live with the stock set-up.

Erik
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