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vw54john
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2004
Posts: 147
Location: Cheshire, CT USA
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 Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:33 am Post subject: Con Rod bolt failure - Warning ? |
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Do they usually give you some kind of warning when they're about to fail? Knocking sound, anything, or do they usually just let go when they've had enough?
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Regards, John
'54 Strato Silver Oval |
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candyman
Samba Trout Slayer
Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 2694
Location: Missoula MT
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:47 am Post subject: |
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yeah they give ya warning.
tick
tick
tick
tock
tock
tock
knock
knock
Kaboom!
thats about it.
Now if you have an oil pressure gauge installed that may buy you some time. me personally, i hate gauges, i find myself dwelling on them way too much  |
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powderedwaters
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2009
Posts: 117
Location: Victoria, BC
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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eeeep 
anyone have a video of such?
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89 VanagonGL Hannover Edition 2.1 AT |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| The only warning that you may get is poor oil pressure at idle. You will probably get between 1000 and 10,000 miles of warning. Ignore it at your peril. |
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binger59
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2007
Posts: 236
Location: Oswego, NY
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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So since I bought this new to me 86' With 113k on it, I've become quite paranoid about this. Does the tick, tick, tick sound like a collapsed lifter? I just changed the oil and it ticks. It hasn't been driven since I bought it home on january 12th. I'll be finishing the hook up of the oil psi gauge tomarrow. What pressure is good pressure? I hope I didn't buy a van about to explode!
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Binger
1984 Westy
1986 7 Pass R.I.P. Donor van
2019 Jetta
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neilwaukee
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2009
Posts: 51
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| they are all about to explode ! |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| powderedwaters wrote: |
eeeep
anyone have a video of such? |
That's a funny thought, someone driving around videotaping constantly for 200k miles in order to get those last 10 seconds when the engine blows up.  |
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thummmper
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009
Posts: 2015
Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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It sounds like turn off the stereo. I played tunes in my beetle and drove over a manmade hill bridging the freeway and broke the crank in my 40 horse. I actually drove it home and the broken halves polished themselves by teen peening. I was 17.
don't they have utube footage of the old bug-ins where they drained the oil out of a bug motor and bet on the time it would take for it to throw a rod? search there--
todd |
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AndyBees
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2331
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| thummmper wrote: |
It sounds like turn off the stereo. I played tunes in my beetle and drove over a manmade hill bridging the freeway and broke the crank in my 40 horse. I actually drove it home and the broken halves polished themselves by teen peening. I was 17.
don't they have utube footage of the old bug-ins where they drained the oil out of a bug motor and bet on the time it would take for it to throw a rod? search there--
todd |
Todd, back in 1978, I too, was driving along doing about 65 mph and the crank in my 40 hp broke. Without stopping, I drove it for another 16 miles not realizing what had happened ....... just a change in power.
Going done the exit ramp at the end of the 16 miles the oil light began to flicker and a knock-knock-knock was very noticable!
And, as you said, the two halves of the crank polished one another!
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=403926
Typically. your only "standard" warning you get is the oil lamp at idle.
You really need an oil pressure gauge to tell if you are getting close.
It takes a good ear to know the difference between a lifter ticking and a rod bearing going.
The worst thing that can happen is shown in the above post.
Then you need a new lower end to rebuild.
For me, I started to thinking engine conversion some time ago, yet that darn wbx never did really die.....
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| AndyBees wrote: |
| thummmper wrote: |
It sounds like turn off the stereo. I played tunes in my beetle and drove over a manmade hill bridging the freeway and broke the crank in my 40 horse. I actually drove it home and the broken halves polished themselves by teen peening. I was 17.
don't they have utube footage of the old bug-ins where they drained the oil out of a bug motor and bet on the time it would take for it to throw a rod? search there--
todd |
Todd, back in 1978, I too, was driving along doing about 65 mph and the crank in my 40 hp broke. Without stopping, I drove it for another 16 miles not realizing what had happened ....... just a change in power.
Going done the exit ramp at the end of the 16 miles the oil light began to flicker and a knock-knock-knock was very noticable!
And, as you said, the two halves of the crank polished one another! |
I'm a little perplexed by that. Aren't the cam and distributor driven off the pulley end of the crank? How could the crank break and the engine still run without the valves working and without the distributor turning? If it broke in half, it might still run from the cylinders on the pulley end of the crank, but you then wouldn't get any power to the wheels. I don't get it... |
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binger59
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2007
Posts: 236
Location: Oswego, NY
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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So I finished hooking up oil psi guage. It read 60 psi at cold idle. It ran at just under 20 psi at a warm idle and ran at just Over 40 during load. Not bad overall I think. Still ticks I'm going with a collapsed lifter. So far so good.
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Binger
1984 Westy
1986 7 Pass R.I.P. Donor van
2019 Jetta
2014 Passat
2019 Atlas
2006 Passat R.I.P.
1998 Jetta R.I.P.
1984 Vanagon R.I.P. |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
| AndyBees wrote: |
| thummmper wrote: |
It sounds like turn off the stereo. I played tunes in my beetle and drove over a manmade hill bridging the freeway and broke the crank in my 40 horse. I actually drove it home and the broken halves polished themselves by teen peening. I was 17.
don't they have utube footage of the old bug-ins where they drained the oil out of a bug motor and bet on the time it would take for it to throw a rod? search there--
todd |
Todd, back in 1978, I too, was driving along doing about 65 mph and the crank in my 40 hp broke. Without stopping, I drove it for another 16 miles not realizing what had happened ....... just a change in power.
Going done the exit ramp at the end of the 16 miles the oil light began to flicker and a knock-knock-knock was very noticable!
And, as you said, the two halves of the crank polished one another! |
I'm a little perplexed by that. Aren't the cam and distributor driven off the pulley end of the crank? How could the crank break and the engine still run without the valves working and without the distributor turning? If it broke in half, it might still run from the cylinders on the pulley end of the crank, but you then wouldn't get any power to the wheels. I don't get it... |
When boxer cranks break they typically crack at an angle across the center main journal, twisting stress is greatest there, and the break is often at such an angle that the two halves are effectively keyed together and continue to rotate as a single unit, the keyed area being bound together in the embrace of the #2 bearing and the thrust containment of the #1 and #3 bearings at either side. Since the forging is so tight-grained it wouldn't take long before the broken surfaces would wear each other down smooth while still having the mechanical key. Stories are plentiful of engines that have gone on running just hunky-dory this way with the owner wondering what that awful clanking noise is emanating from the top of the case.
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Ahh, thanks for the explanation.  |
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| binger59 wrote: |
| So I finished hooking up oil psi guage. It read 60 psi at cold idle. It ran at just under 20 psi at a warm idle and ran at just Over 40 during load. Not bad overall I think. Still ticks I'm going with a collapsed lifter. So far so good. |
Try some Marvel Mystery Oil. Followed by an oil change with good oil and a filter that meets spec. There are posts about this. It might take a few times.
The way I get rid of a ticker is to run the engine with the Marvel Oil at 4K RPM for several miles on the freeway. My ticking comes when the oil is dirty. The Marvel always does the trick. But, I soon follow that by an oil change.
Go to the Best Threads sticky (link in my sig lines) and see how that goes.
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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deprivation
Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2006
Posts: 1220
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| binger59 wrote: |
| So far so good. |
Indeed. The first time I had a lifter poop on me I thought for sure I had somehow toasted the engine. I had been getting a low pressure buzzer so I replaced all the senders and the oil pump as well as adding a OP gauge.
Started her up and "bam bam bam bam bam!" Thought I was going to faint.
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AndyBees
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2331
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:48 pm Post subject: Broken 40 HP crank |
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| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
| Ahh, thanks for the explanation. |
Ten Cent, I'm glad you explained that, cause that was over 32 years ago.
Actually, I kept that crank for a number of years to show-off what had happened. It was a fairly slick brake between two journals (#1 and a main as I recall).
Anyway, three cylinders and two mains were operating on the flywheel end of the crankshaft and one cylinder and two mains were operating on the back end of the engine.
As stated, everything had to rotate together ... no, it did not run very well and was losing power slowly over the 16 miles traveled..... and, as stated, the oil light began to flicker as I was going down the exit ramp!
There was a tremdous amount of End-play in the crankshaft!.....LOL
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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ftp2leta
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Con Rod bolt failure - Warning ? |
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| vw54john wrote: |
| Do they usually give you some kind of warning when they're about to fail? Knocking sound, anything, or do they usually just let go when they've had enough? |
This should be your last thing to worry about. I have seen 2-3 in my life, 1 lost the low oil pressure sender so this one is not even a rod problem.
Drive the thing and stop worrying. If you worry that bad you know what to do. Have it fully rebuilt.
Oil pressure gauge are a gadget, if you loose pressure it's to late anyway, damage is done. What multiple gauge do is make your life more miserable and stressful, instead of looking at the road you will stare at those and go crazy.
Shit, i'm 44 today... this is horrible.
Ben
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Zero419
Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2008
Posts: 2160
Location: PA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Happy B-day!!!!
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Con Rod bolt failure - Warning ? |
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| ftp2leta wrote: |
| Oil pressure gauge are a gadget, if you loose pressure it's to late anyway, damage is done. What multiple gauge do is make your life more miserable and stressful, instead of looking at the road you will stare at those and go crazy. |
Not exactly. It is only stressful if you obsess over the readings. I glance at the gauges from time to time. They give me a warm fuzzy feeling. I have been using them for decades. My father, the aviator and Master German Mechanic (who directed our family "German Car Repair" for over half a century,) ALWAYS had our long range toys instrumented like airplanes. These thingies (even as inaccurate as they are) saved our hides numerous times.
| ftp2leta wrote: |
Shit, i'm 44 today... this is horrible.
Ben |
Now you are obsessing! Don't stress over the age gauge. It moves whether you think about it or not.
Enjoy your life. Don't be miserable based on your age. It does not help!
Now go back to work!
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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