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Timwhy Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2009 Posts: 3997 Location: Maine
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:34 am Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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My drivers side window started acting up and I removed it to clean everything up. Once back together it would start to fail, with the window down and not going up or vice versa.
Removed the motor and clearly the brushes are worn out. I measured them 6.2mm H and 6.1 W but do not know the Length. My assumption would be the length of the guide that they fit in, maybe 6mm L.
Any way I found some carbon brushes on Amazon 6mm X 6mm X 20mm, a four pack for under $6. I also checked in with a local Alternator/Starter repair man, who said he can make to size brushes for me. He also said that the carbon brushes should work fine but for how long I don't know?
I'll probably go to the repair man and have the brushes made as I think the carbon brushes will wear out too quickly.
Here's a link to the brushes: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DUYRC68/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I have them in after cutting them down and the motor is working.
Here's another link to a write up I found while doing a search on the motor brushes. I emailed the gentleman and asked what he used? He replied that the brushes were custom made for the motor.
http://saabjournal.blogspot.com/2016/05/reconditioned-v-w-vanagon-window-lift.html?m=1 _________________ '15 Audi A3 Quattro
'09 VW Tiguan (dead)
'87 VW Westy
'91 Tin Top
'90 Cabby
What the Westy wants the Westy GETS
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php?search_author=Timwhy&show_results=summary
http://www.youtube.com/user/TIMWHY2?feature=mhee |
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spitsnrovers Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2005 Posts: 924 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:21 am Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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I read your post and the 2 links with interest. So now I am curious - why and how are "starter brushes" different from regular brushes?
Aren't all motor brushes really carbon brushes? Is it possible there may be different densities of brushes? Is that the reason for "starter brushes"?
Not to be pedantic, but I think the description should be "starter motor brushes". IE, brushes from a starter motor.
To me simply "starter brushes" means a second set of brushes, like a "starter capacitor", or "starter winding" in other motors. _________________ '88 VW Westfalia
'75 Triumph Spitfire 1500 |
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chachi Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2003 Posts: 858 Location: the weeds
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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just wanted to be another person to laud this thread. $100 saved is $100 down some other rathole. _________________ '74 transporter panel
'91 vanagon carat NAHT |
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Timwhy Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2009 Posts: 3997 Location: Maine
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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spitsnrovers wrote: |
I read your post and the 2 links with interest. So now I am curious - why and how are "starter brushes" different from regular brushes?
Aren't all motor brushes really carbon brushes? Is it possible there may be different densities of brushes? Is that the reason for "starter brushes"?
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Not sure but a Google search yielded this:
There are five main groups which differ in use of raw material and manufacturing process:
Hard carbon brushes. ...
Carbon-graphite brushes. ...
Resin-bonded brushes. ...
Electrographite brushes. ...
Metal graphite brushes. _________________ '15 Audi A3 Quattro
'09 VW Tiguan (dead)
'87 VW Westy
'91 Tin Top
'90 Cabby
What the Westy wants the Westy GETS
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php?search_author=Timwhy&show_results=summary
http://www.youtube.com/user/TIMWHY2?feature=mhee |
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16CVs Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2004 Posts: 4020 Location: Redwood City, California
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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An interesting article for sure. I would have left the rubber plugs off of the bottom as they allow the water and moisture to sit in the motor.
You can buy brand new Brush packs for under $30.00 With the holder and thermal switch. NO messing around with cutting brushes and the like.
I've found that there are usually other problems that the motor won't work then worn out brushes.
I guess the Saab club is more lienent on non related items than most.
Stacy _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread. |
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Timwhy Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2009 Posts: 3997 Location: Maine
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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16CVs wrote: |
An interesting article for sure. I would have left the rubber plugs off of the bottom as they allow the water and moisture to sit in the motor.
You can buy brand new Brush packs for under $30.00 With the holder and thermal switch. NO messing around with cutting brushes and the like.
I've found that there are usually other problems that the motor won't work then worn out brushes.
I guess the Saab club is more lienent on non related items than most.
Stacy |
Stacy, do you have a link by chance? _________________ '15 Audi A3 Quattro
'09 VW Tiguan (dead)
'87 VW Westy
'91 Tin Top
'90 Cabby
What the Westy wants the Westy GETS
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php?search_author=Timwhy&show_results=summary
http://www.youtube.com/user/TIMWHY2?feature=mhee |
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spitsnrovers Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2005 Posts: 924 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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timwhy - searched till I found your reference to the 5 grades of brushes.
Learned something today, thanks. _________________ '88 VW Westfalia
'75 Triumph Spitfire 1500 |
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16CVs Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2004 Posts: 4020 Location: Redwood City, California
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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Timwhy wrote: |
16CVs wrote: |
An interesting article for sure. I would have left the rubber plugs off of the bottom as they allow the water and moisture to sit in the motor.
You can buy brand new Brush packs for under $30.00 With the holder and thermal switch. NO messing around with cutting brushes and the like.
I've found that there are usually other problems that the motor won't work then worn out brushes.
I guess the Saab club is more lienent on non related items than most.
Stacy |
Stacy, do you have a link by chance? |
I'll sell one to you if you need it. I generally just sell them with my rebuilds.
I have a quantity I bought a while ago. let me know.
Stacy _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread. |
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Timwhy Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2009 Posts: 3997 Location: Maine
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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16CVs wrote: |
Timwhy wrote: |
16CVs wrote: |
An interesting article for sure. I would have left the rubber plugs off of the bottom as they allow the water and moisture to sit in the motor.
You can buy brand new Brush packs for under $30.00 With the holder and thermal switch. NO messing around with cutting brushes and the like.
I've found that there are usually other problems that the motor won't work then worn out brushes.
I guess the Saab club is more lienent on non related items than most.
Stacy |
Stacy, do you have a link by chance? |
I'll sell one to you if you need it. I generally just sell them with my rebuilds.
I have a quantity I bought a while ago. let me know.
Stacy |
Awesome sending a PM! Thank you!! _________________ '15 Audi A3 Quattro
'09 VW Tiguan (dead)
'87 VW Westy
'91 Tin Top
'90 Cabby
What the Westy wants the Westy GETS
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php?search_author=Timwhy&show_results=summary
http://www.youtube.com/user/TIMWHY2?feature=mhee |
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TreePreacher Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2007 Posts: 16 Location: Central Oregon
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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5 Stars
BRAVO!!!
You've inspired me to do a repair and then post just like you. (I might even look for something that doesn't already have its own post.)
Seriously, though... You're a true hero.
5 Stars _________________ Quote: "Not All Hippies Have Long Hair."
'91 Carat, current daily driver!
'68 bug, bought new by Dad; buried by me in the '80s
'69 wrecked beetle, became baja; bought & sold in the '80s
'59 project bus, never finished (barely started), sold in the '80s
'71 411, bought & sold in the '80s
'74 412 "parts car" went to the boneyard
'77 Transporter, bought in the 90s; sold in the '08 market crash. :\
'93 EV GL, bought & sold in the early 2010s |
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Cndyluv Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2019 Posts: 2 Location: Alhambra
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:03 am Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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Hi there. Anybody know where I can get the bushings for the window motor? Thank you. |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4580 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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Stacy at 16 CVs If he doesn't know then no one does. You may need a new motor. |
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16CVs Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2004 Posts: 4020 Location: Redwood City, California
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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Why do you need new bushings? Take them out and clean them up with some emery paper, lube them up and put them back in.
Getting that lower bearing in and staked is a chore. In order for it to work properly the bearing needs to be tight.
Stacy _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread. |
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Back to top |
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JEL91Westy Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2020 Posts: 211 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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Great thread with tons of info! So I noticed over the winter that my PS window seemed slower than usual, to the point where I was worried to use it. Keep in mind it was 20F out. Since summer window works much better, but still slightly slower than the DS, and seems to struggle more towards the top. I wanted to post a video, but that doesn’t seem possible. So before I start taking motors apart and such, is this likely a cable issue or motor bearing? I cleaned all the contacts at the switch, and although I didn’t put a meter on it believe it is getting adequate voltage.
I also noticed that the exterior window sweep on the PS is much looser than the DS. They are both relatively new, it almost seems like the door skin is spread.
Wondering how far to go at this point? Do I just tear it all out to inspect since I have the interior panel off, or live with the slow window?
Thanks in advance for the advice. _________________ 91 Westy
85 911 |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4580 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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I am a firm believer that the wire size and switch contact areas are not large enough to handle the T3 windows after a number of years. I've had slow PS windows in a number of mine. Lately I have given up on the OG method and gone to relay operations so the switches only see coil amperage. In addition much heavier wire is used. Now my PS window operates and the same speed and I have had now switch failures.
In short, I don't think your speed problem has anything to do with the motor. I'm sure it's fine just as it is.
Here is an earlier post I wrote on the subject.
DuncanS wrote: |
Classic problem. The entire window switching and wiring was marginal as the car left the factory. Now 30 plus years later, it's hopeless for reliability.Here is my solution from another topic, but dealing with the issues.
DuncanS wrote: |
This is from another thread, but about the same thing. Still can't post pictures so can't provide the circuit diagram, but maybe you can figure it out from the explanation below. Either ask or PM me if you ave additional questions. There are 4 connections between doors and the switches aren't capable of handling the loads.
S Surf--Sorry, but something wacky is going on with my ability to upload photos to the gallery. Upgraded my Mac OS and now it doesn't like it. Will sort it out and post ASAP.
In the meantime, here is what I did. Three relays per side in the door.
The relays don't have to be in the door. I just happened to have the space and so that's where they went partially because the motor plugs are in the door and it made connections simpler. PS is where the speaker used to be which was relocated for a different reason, but the DS has them at the bottom of the door.
Relay 1 turns power on sending it to the other two relays, but does not activate them. The power passes through the normally closed contacts. The diode blocks power to those relay coils. With the switch in the other position power passes through the diode and activates not only relay 1, the power relay, but the other two as well thus reversing polarity.
The switches. Any SPDT center off momentary will do as the loads are only the relay coils which are low. I used the OG window switches, but in a different form. I used the brown ground wire as the supply. I forget which were the other ones, but using a multimeter to test for continuity can easily show you which to use. I do know that the red wires are normally hot all the time and so they can't be used as they are without clipping the connection between them as they are soldered onto two terminals. As someone already said there are four connectors between the two doors for the pair that runs across. I elected to run entirely new wires with no connectors at all. Connectors may simplify assembly with different parts of the factory harnesses when the car is building built, but that was 31 years ago and no longer a requirement. Directly from the switch plugs on one side to the switch plugs on the other. For window power, I ran new 12 gauge stranded marine wire with each strand tinned before assembly for both the positive and ground. This is the best wire you can get and has far better insulation than regular auto or house wire. I didn't want to rely on the door hinges to provide continuity and I wanted heavy duty current capability.
Duncan
I wrote this assuming the diagram would accompany the text.
Diode--A diode of min values of 12v and 1 amp is connected across the output of the switches. I used solar blocking diodes which are cheap and can handle the loads. This allows the switch to send power either to just the power relay 1 blocking the cross connection to keep it from going down the other leg. When pushed the other way, the power can go to all three relays. So in the normally closed positions of relays 2 and 3, the positive goes to one leg of the window motor and the negative/ground goes to the other. When the diode allows all three relays to be activated, relays 2 and 3 trip and reverse the polarity to the motor and thus it's direction. The leads from the switch go separately to relay 1 and the other to 2 and 3.
Hope this is clear enough for you to figure out. Will post the diagram as soon as I can.
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[img]https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/2150360.jpg[/im
I highly recommend doing this. In the barest minimum, I recommend putting new wires from door to door. |
So here is the wiring diagram.
I said in an earlier post how to rewire the OG window switches. Use the brown ground wire as the 12v feed. Snip the red switch wire that goes between two terminals and abandon that. The other two white with black stripes are the supplies to the relays. The two wires running from left to right are the ones I recommend replacing and running directly from door to door with just the switch plugs used in the doors. The two current paths shown right and left marked +12v are the dedicated new 16 gauge minimum--I used 12g--along with the two ground wires shown at the bottom right of the relay clusters that run from a new fuse panel and a new dedicated ground. I have chosen to run these off the 30 circuit--hot all the time--as I want to be able to run my windows without having to have the key on. You will have to figure out up and down. If backwards you will have to swap supply leads at the switches. |
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JEL91Westy Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2020 Posts: 211 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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I assume the fact it goes down much quicker than it goes up is the simple result of gravity. Does the fact it seems to go even slower as it approaches the top, and seems to almost grind, suggest anything in particular?
I know if I tear it out I will be going down the dark hole of tearing motor apart. If that is really what needs to happen so be it. _________________ 91 Westy
85 911 |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4580 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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Yes, it suggests your switch contacts are corroded and maybe some of the wire as well. The grinding may be misalignment with the regulator or corrosion so the slide is not as happy as it wants to be.
Take the panel off and apply power directly from the battery to the two motor terminals in the plug. Plug unplugged, of course. If the window still goes up and down slowly, It's either the regulator or the motor. If it goes up at the same speed as the DS then it's the wiring.
By applying power directly to the plug, reverse the connections at the plug to get the opposite direction. |
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JEL91Westy Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2020 Posts: 211 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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Just got back to this. It goes up as quick if not quicker than the other side when I bypass the switch. Some corrosion at the soldered joints on the back of the switch. I guess I should cut back to good wire and spice in new pieces and resolder them.
Thanks for the help. _________________ 91 Westy
85 911 |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4580 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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It's unlikely the exclusive fault of the wire. The wire is not really big enough for a 30 year life span, but the switch is probably only good for a 15 year life span. The only real way to do wires is run brand new one from DS to The PS switch. There are four plugs along the way. Two in the dash area. it could be them. The only sure fire way I know to get full power to the PS motor is to relay them and use new wire. I use factory switches, but modified as they only ever see coil amperage which is very low.
So here is the wiring diagram.
I said in an earlier post how to rewire the OG window switches. Use the brown ground wire as the 12v feed. Snip the red switch wire that goes between two terminals and abandon that. The other two white with black stripes are the supplies to the relays. The two wires running from left to right are the ones I recommend replacing and running directly from door to door with just the switch plugs used in the doors. The two current paths shown right and left marked +12v are the dedicated new 16 gauge minimum--I used 12g--along with the two ground wires shown at the bottom right of the relay clusters that run from a new fuse panel and a new dedicated ground. I have chosen to run these off the 30 circuit--hot all the time--as I want to be able to run my windows without having to have the key on. You will have to figure out up and down. If backwards you will have to swap supply leads at the switches. |
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mreuter Samba Member
Joined: August 26, 2008 Posts: 390 Location: oakland
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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Power Window Motor Rebuild: How to |
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Does anyone know where to source the start capacitor in the motor? It is a small grey piece from Rosser but I cannot for nd anything even looking like this.
Must be someone with a blown one. |
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