Author |
Message |
seabeesMCB9 Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2007 Posts: 29
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:55 am Post subject: Stigma attached to the WBX? |
|
|
First off, please know that this post is not being written to flame anyone.There are more posts every day inquiring into engine swaps and I was wondering why. I have owned a Syncro and was pleased with the way it ran. It was not a Westy so I do not know of the lack of power because of the added weight. This seems to be one of the major complaints. The other is obviously the head gasket issue. We now know the causes of the lack of power and gasket failures (i.e. too low of a compression ratio and incorrect coolant), and yet there still seems to be few rebuilds going on. These little engines seem quite durable and I feel that with a updated approach, (balancing, higher compression, cam specs, headers,etc.) they could still be a viable alternative to a swap. Am I way off base? It also seems more cost effective than most swaps. What do you guys think? Please educate me. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
you will still have the old air/fuel system, the old ignition system, the old electrical harness . . . the NLA engine compartment hoses. All that vacuum hose stuff all over the place. _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Perales Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2007 Posts: 2046 Location: Nova Scotia
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
I love my 2.1L WBX.
I have no plans to swap anything. With that said, it is a 25 year old obsolete engine with a growing number of parts either NLA or made in China. Many of the conversion options tend to address the problem of vanishing parts supply by going to a more modern motor with available parts. (Subaru for instance). As I see it, the added power that they offer is a bonus, not the prime reason.
Flame on. _________________ -- 1987 Westfalia automatic (Captain Vino) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
madmax25 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2007 Posts: 204 Location: Kansas City MO
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have no complaints about either of my 2.1s, except that they're getting old and leak a bit. Already done the top end of one of them, someday I'll have to do the other to fix the head gaskets. As far as power, I just keep in mind that I'm working with 90 hp and don't drive like it's a new car. They are what they are. (and I happen to love the sound of the 2.1s- kinda loud and throaty, but no actual muscle behind it ) _________________ -Elliot
'88 Vanagon GL "Big Red"
'90 Westy |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ccisco Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2008 Posts: 212 Location: eugene
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:11 am Post subject: engine swap |
|
|
Just my two cents: It would be hard to take a 2.1, roughly 90 HP and get it up to the 135 or so hp that the older 2.2 subies give you. In addition, you are still looking at the old pushrod technology with the WB's, while with the subies, or Ztech you are looking at overhead cam, and many other modernizations. Despite this, I think you are correct: when maintained, the waterboxer has been a pretty good, although grossly underpowered engine. What has made me move towards a subie conversion are: More power and the ability to find affordable parts. Parts for the waterboxer are becoming less and less available, the cases are starting to show a high degree of metal fatigue, like the head studs breaking, and the parts you do find are becoming lower and lower in quality yet higher and higher in price.
My subie conversion is going to end up costing me about 2000 dollars (all lobor by me), which is jus a little bit more than doing a cheapo rebuild on a boxer...
Charles |
|
Back to top |
|
|
onwardtothestars Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2007 Posts: 225 Location: Hazenville Pass Wyoming
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
one could easily replace all the old systems with something new like 034 IA/B/C or megasquirt, vems, etc... There's ways around all the NLA hoses too.
I've had my Syncro for almost a year and coming from no previous WBX experience I'm actually impressed with my WBX despite it's lack of power. If I had the money burning a hole in my pocket now I'd buy a engine from tencent, for a simple upgrade in power. _________________ lots of VW's |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jeroland Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2008 Posts: 31 Location: Carbondale, Colorado
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, I would agree that it's almost always more financially viable to fix the problem you're having, than to swap out the entire engine, which is why I'm still running a WBX in my van. However, if you're faced with having to replace the engine anyway, then why not spend a couple grand extra and get a nice, reliable more powerful engine (either Subaru or VW) put in that will ultimately greatly increase the value of your van. Also, 90hp may have been sufficient in the 1980s but by today's standards it is simply not enough to keep up on the highways, especially for a syncro. If my engine blew up, I probably wouldn't even consider putting in another WBX. _________________ 1987 Quantum Syncro Wagon
2001 Toyota Tundra TRD |
|
Back to top |
|
|
0to60in6min Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006 Posts: 3411 Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have 89' non-westy vanagon, WBX. It runs fine...
It runs fine.....till I load it up for camping trip and start to climb a moderate incline.... and then I feel like the whole rig IS a road hazard.... and get hassled even by a heavy loaded 18 wheeler...
for those who never go where the road climb .. please forget this post...
Sooo....I am toying with the idea of a conversion... and the above is 90% of the reason.. the other sad 10% is my favorite mechanic do not service any Subie.. don't even want to hear about a conversion...
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
onwardtothestars wrote: |
one could easily replace all the old systems with something new like 034 IA/B/C or megasquirt, vems, etc... There's ways around all the NLA hoses too.
I've had my Syncro for almost a year and coming from no previous WBX experience I'm actually impressed with my WBX despite it's lack of power. If I had the money burning a hole in my pocket now I'd buy a engine from tencent, for a simple upgrade in power. |
ya so bring it on. Lets see somebody put together a plug and play FI and ignition kit. CB Performance has one for air cooleds for +- $1800.00 _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
|
Back to top |
|
|
WestyBob Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2004 Posts: 2346 Location: Portland, Oregon
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Stigma attached to the WBX? |
|
|
There's nothing wrong or bad about the 2.1 wbxer. In fact it turned out to be as good as any other engine of it's era.
It is underpowered for the vanagon in some applications.
Due to what others said about age and parts, people are converting to keep their rigs alive.
Plenty of good conver options depending on your skill level, performance needs and finances.
Subie engines are the most popular conver largely because of their availability, fitment and reliability (if you get a clean one to begin with).
Three of my four have subies, one has the stock. I like them all but a more modern engine with better performance and torque, depending on your needs, enormously increases the enjoyment of retaining and driving a vanagon. And hopefully you'd have substantially improved reliability. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think the wbx makes a great engine for 2wd passenger vans. It provides a completely adequate power level, is smooth, and can be serviced at any repair shop - a real consideration when it comes to conversions and non-mechanic owners.
IMO, Syncros, campers, and automatics make a good case for considering a conversion since I have found the performance more wanting on all of these.
As others have noted, the basic engine can be quite durable when put together properly. I think the biggest problem facing the wasserboxer is the extremely high cost of replacement accessory parts. Once you start pricing out replacement exhaust components, cooling system parts, and Digifant components you are approaching the price of the conversion parts for a Subaru conversion.
The nice thing about the Vanagon scene is that there is something for everybody at this point when it comes to engine choices. Staying with the wbx is certainly an understandable route. As a VW owner from way back I personally like the fact that the wbx represents the highest evolution of the Type 1 engine. If they'd just done the head gasket design better, it could have been a legendary engine for VW.
David |
|
Back to top |
|
|
PDXWesty Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2006 Posts: 6234 Location: Portland OR
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
I like my WBX. I have a 5500# Westy and it still climbs over Mt hood at 50 mph. I'll probably go with a 2.2 or a 2.4 if I ever need to rebuild. _________________ 89 Westy 2.1 Auto |
|
Back to top |
|
|
j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
I like my 2.1, fine.. but I want an SVX..
cuz.. well.. its a beast with lots more oomph.
I'm planning on keeping the 2.1, though.
Maybe doing a cursory rebuild with my son, if he's interested.. and putting it into a buggy. A Manx-like rig.
If I wasn't interested in the added power of the SVX and if I wasn't interested in the experience of doing a swap myself.. Well.. I'd be happy with the 2.1. It does need a rebuild though. At 173ish k its getting tired. _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
kevtherev Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2007 Posts: 897 Location: the 51st state
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm enjoying my 2.1 DJ.. 112 bhp.
more than enough power for our camping trips..
it's not a GTO or anything now is it..huh? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
CessnaJon Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2008 Posts: 677 Location: Senoia,GA
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I love my waterboxer. _________________ 1973 Westy (shared birthday)
1990 Westy Multivan
2015 Passat TDI 6sp
2015 Sportwagon TDI 6sp
LR-JET, Gulfstream 159 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
whynotvw Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2004 Posts: 1322
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
i have subaru 2.2 ej22 right now. i say to myself how did i ever drive the wassserboxer. it is night and day. there is a used japanese motor shop one minute from my house and a complete ej22 engine with 40-60k miles goes for $700 out the door.
imo, if you can afford the conversion it is worth it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
levi Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005 Posts: 5522 Location: Las Vegas
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My reason for swapping out was financial, not really about power, or the additional couple 1,000 on the power band, though that's nice to have.
While I was actually satisfied with the power of the 1.9 that I had, it was closing in on 250,000 miles.
To have someone rebuild the wbx would have cost the same as for me to swap out to 2.2 suby myself.
Then add that if the suby motor dies I can replace with another jdm for about 1000$, but the same situation for the wbx would cost about 3x's that.
Seemed like a no-brainer. _________________ One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vannygun Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2006 Posts: 316 Location: Portland,or
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have a 90 2wd gl(not westy). It drove adequate(sp) that wasn't my main reason for doing my swap(I am in the first week of the swap), but it was a contributing factor. I also am not happy with the parts situation on the old wbx. I have the subaru2.2 on and engine stand right now and just looking at it I am impressed. There is so much more thought and inovation on this engine. I am happy with the decision to do the swap and I havent even taken out the wbx yet. I will be right around $2k when all said and done. $500 for donor car(drove it home) $1200-1300 in conversion only parts and $200-300 in extras(new gaskets,O-rings,oil filter,belts etc. The price alone is worth it to me. By the way I will have a good engine that needs a new home(heads are pitted though) in a couple weeks. Can't wait to drive it in my 3600 LB van. _________________ definition-Vanagon, "a ideal breeding ground for gremlins"
2000 jeep Cherokee sport (DD)
1990 vanagon gl 2.2 subaru(sold)
2006 jeep commander |
|
Back to top |
|
|
AndyBees Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008 Posts: 2303 Location: Southeast Kentucky
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm Post subject: WBX performance |
|
|
Until a couple of years ago, my experience with the WBX engine was very limited (helped my uncle with tune-ups, etc., at his auto repair service).
I've owned a non-Westy '83 Air-cooled since 1985... driven it to Alaska and back 7 times (also, 225 miles north to the Arctic Circle 3 times). I can remember trips (4 of us) with it loaded so heavy I thought it would not make the trip! It did okay. Of course, I did not drive over 65 mph... occassionally hit 70 mph (real speed).
However, in the fall of '07, I purchased a nice '84 WBX for the purpose of following my dream ....... TDI engine transplant! I've been impressed with the little 1.9 WBX engine... lots of pep and runs smooth as silk! Of course, I did do some tune-up and other maintenace work to it early on.
If anyone is interested in my ALH TDI (VW Diesel) engine transplant, you can follow it at: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=276798 photos of tranny rebuild, graph on gearing, electrical mod info, oil pan mod, etc.
There are other VW bus/vanagon conversions in progress there as well!
Last edited by AndyBees on Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
RGS Paul Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2007 Posts: 661 Location: Los Alamos, NM
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I really like the wasserboxer and plan on keeping it for a long time. I'm getting ready to build one of the GW 2300 kits to replace the slightly tired 2.1 that is in the Syncro now, should be just enough power to help on the hills in Colorado. I haven't seen a conversion that does really well in the Syncro and meets all my criteria. The closest thing is the m-TDI swaps but they are mucho expensive and very custom. My ideal engine? Oettinger 2500E, now that would be a sweet setup.
Paul _________________ '87 Syncro 7-Pass. Adventure Touring Vehicle
"Simplicate, then add lightness." Colin Chapman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|