pushrod tube seal question T4 bus

[SGKent]

If these two questions have been covered before I apologize but I could not locate a definitive answer through searches here and elsewhere. I am asking here in the bay bus forum because the engine forum seems to be mostly T1 and these seals are only on the T4 motors (bus, porsche 914 or 411/412).

1) Seem the current thinking is viton seals with either just oil / silcone grease/ or Loctite 565. I thought I had read somewhere in this forum to only put the 565 sealant on the lower seals if it is used but I can't find that thread. Anyone know what is the current thinking here? Top and bottom, just bottom or just top?

2) I have the VR green upper and black lower seals as well as the brown BD viton ones. Someone wrote in a thread that the VR ones are viton also. Is this correct or are only the upper VR green ones viton?
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Oil Phil-M]

I used 565 on both ends. Put a nice bead in the grooves, installed the o-rings then added some more 565 and smeared it evenly around and installed. Then I cleaned up any excess.

[hurst_dave]

1) I'm not sure but would like to know as well. I'm not a big fan of putting sealant on an o-ring (sealing is the o-ring's job!) and I think that if your pushrod leaked in the future it may be difficult to really clean up the area with the hardened sealant there without pulling the engine.

2) I was under the impression that none of the Victor Reinz pushrod tube seals were viton. I ordered the VR engine gasket kit and the viton tube seals separately. But I could have been wrong.
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1978 Deluxe Campmobile Westy, 2.0L w/ FI.
Don't believe everything you think.

[Hoody]

If you got them from Scott, your good.Anyone else, all bets are off.Go Pens!

[Lil Lulu]

I just started my type 4 that I rebuilt. I used oil on the viton seals(they came in the VR kit) So far no oil leaks at all. I would not like the prospect of trying to clean out the old crap from any "sealant" if I had to go back into the engine for any reason. It would be a bitch.

I don't think the sealants will make a bond with the seals like they do with metals. The pushrod tubes expand and contract with heat changes in the engine.The seals are seals and should function as seals.

Just my 2.5 cents.
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'65 Beetle "Lil' Lulu"- Ruby Red
1600 stock from '71 bus

'72 Deluxe - Niagara Blue w/pastelwiess Camper Special 2L dual 40 Webers 002

'74 Hightop Weekender "Dixie" 1800 34 Del singles

[Randy in Maine]

Use the Locktite 565 on those seals and you will be good. It is just the white "liquid teflon" that plumbers use and the same stuff you also use on the case through bolts. It really doesn't get hard, and it does provided some flex for expansion and contraction.

[VDubTech]

I use a quick shot of PB B'Laster on the seals to help with installation and nothing else. Never had a leak. I only use the viton seals, they are not Victor Reinz, I source them locally.
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First Trip in the RustyBus:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279077&highlight=

[1975 Kombi]

I had Whip618 modify the ends on the push rod tubes by for two reasons which gave me better odds for sealing. One to correct the shape for a perfect circle and secondly to help with the seal. He widened the circumference by a hair, I think a thou. On both ends.

You have to be very careful and debur the head and the block and add a very slight angle on the outer lip so the o rings will slide on.

Leaking may depend more on the prep work to make sure the seals do not tear and that the tubes are round and not oval.
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Brett

“He’s decieving you boy! Reach into his pocket and take what he’s got.” Mr. Crabbs.

75 Westy auto
03 Jetta TDI
71 SB
74 Westy
Licensed pilot (single engine land VFR)
--
Rust In Pieces: 72 Bug, 73 Bug, 81 Rabbit LS D 2D, 83 Rabbit D 2D, 84 Jetta TD GL, 85 Jetta D, 68 Z28 RS 302, 91 Passat 16v

[Mark]

I haven't had any pushrod tube leaks since installing the Viton seals with only a light wipe of oil.
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www.zwerks.ca

[raygreenwood]

A couple of things:

The pushrod tube seal is a moving joint. If you look at that picture, you will notice that the inner/block end groove where the smaller seal goes is WIDER. This is because as the parts of the engine expand with heat....the outer (head) end stays staionary (this is why they are held in with the pushrod wire clips...so they stay still)....and the inner end slides with the expansion. The wider groove is so that the inner o-ring can slip back and forth without losing its seal on the case.
More precisely...the pushrod tube slips in and out of the inner o-ring with expansion.

The ONLy reason the factory used only oil on the inner end is because they had nothing better at the time.

Since the outer seal joint against the head is designed to stay stationary (again...notice the thinner o-ring groove and the retaining wires/clips).....its just as easy to install it with a highly flexible high temp, oil proof RTV. I use a very, very thin film of permatex copper. Made for oily areas and good to over 600F.

The teflon sealant is excellent on the inner seal.

As for seals themselves....there are three kinds.
(1) all Black in old kits....hard to find that much anymore...which are Buna-N...and are NOT good as the heat range is poor. The black seals get hard.
(2) Combination kits with green outer (viton) and black inner. Also green and green in some older kits...all viton...great. The inner black seals are Buna-N...and will harden up...but with a teflon sealer...they will still slide and seal.
(3) Red seals. Some very old sets with flat textured bright red seals....are very sucky seals. The late seals that are red/orange and glossy surface are silicone. Those are the best as far as temperature, lack of shrinkage and oil proof. they were primarily designed...I think....just like the silicone rear main seal....as a tropical variant as they have less problems with combinations of high heat and high humidity.
The only issue with silicone seals...say on the inner end....as compared to viton...is that they are a little grippy. They can stick to a slightly dry surface. Should not be an issue when properly oiled or with proper sealant.

In the past...I have been able to go to any metric o-ring dealer and source both ends in either silicone or viton. Ray

[Kosmo]

Do Pushrod tubes "Drip" mostly at high Rpms only?

Mine seem to be leaking, but nothing drips at idle. There is oil though,
running down the case and a small puddle inside the seal area.

My seals are slightly red in color. Are they more prone to leak at cylinder 3?

[Wildthings]

[SGKent]

I am reading that the answers to my questions are:

That 565 is good when used on just the inner, or on both the inner and outer, based on builder preferences.

use the known viton brown ones that I have. That the green outer in the VR kit is viton but the black inner is N-butyl which will harden and leak sooner. Alternatively I could locate some green inner to replace the black ones and use all green.

Is there anyone who does not concur with my understanding?
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Hoody]

Jake got it right some time ago.

[SGKent]

[Lil Lulu]

Jake, or at least his kit man advises oil. On my Camper Special there were no less than 5 sealants required (not recommended but required) and included in the kit but the seals had to have oil, period.
_________________
'65 Beetle "Lil' Lulu"- Ruby Red
1600 stock from '71 bus

'72 Deluxe - Niagara Blue w/pastelwiess Camper Special 2L dual 40 Webers 002

'74 Hightop Weekender "Dixie" 1800 34 Del singles

[Wildthings]

[SGKent]

[Wildthings]

[Lil Lulu]

I have an e-mail from Blake, who is the engine kit guy from Air-cooled Technologies it says "we use engine oil" It also says "you can use 565 if you want to. The Bug Me video that I received with my engine kit and to which I adhered to religiously says "coat these with engine oil".

I don't particularly care what anyone uses. I'm not saying that Jake is God or preordained to know all. I've never spoken with the man. I'm just stating what I was told to use. So far it has been good advice.

Kind of sorry I even made a post concerning this matter. I should have known that I would, sooner or later, be everyone's goat.

I want to state this plainly: I AM NO EXPERT.

Respectfully, RB[/u]
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'65 Beetle "Lil' Lulu"- Ruby Red
1600 stock from '71 bus

'72 Deluxe - Niagara Blue w/pastelwiess Camper Special 2L dual 40 Webers 002

'74 Hightop Weekender "Dixie" 1800 34 Del singles