1.9 WBX rebuild questions

[klucz]

Thanks so much for your reply, I really appreciate you helping me check myself. From your description of the fit of the bearings in the saddles it looks like mine is borderline loose to trashed. 1 and 3 drop in without much pressure, but the #2 half shells are a tight fit. The thrust bearing flanges do not clasp the saddles tightly. With firm hand pressure the thrust does not move. I guess this is to be expected on a 1.9 approaching 100K.

One big mistake I made was that I did not take into account the difference in ID of the bearings when on the bench and when torqued down in the case. Unfortunately I destroyed my cylinder bore gauge in the process, it bottomed out and messed up the anvils. I guess that means that there is some crush going on but I don't know how much exactly.

10cent - I know that you've repeated a lot of these things over and over, and I really, really (REALLY) appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. I started this rebuild thinking I could make this engine more reliable but now I'm seriously considering throwing in the towel. Don't want to end up stranded on the side of the road somewhere. I've learned a lot from you over the years, so thanks a ton.
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84 Westy 4spd sold

[tencentlife]

[klucz]

bump
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84 Westy 4spd sold

[klucz]

[stevey88]

I bought my HF micrometer set about 3 years ago when I rebuilt my Toyota V6 engine. The mic has the Cen-Tech logo and engraved with the marking 0.0001" together with the size of the mic. The current HF mic set looks exactly the same as mine but it is only a 0.001 set, 0.001" was engraved on the mic. I believe the 0.0001" set was less than $50 when I bought it.
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Steve

87 Westfalia full camper 4 speed

[klucz]

That's interesting, Steve. I'm glad to hear that you found your HF mics to be accurate. As for the standards being off well that is a bummer. These types of low priced tools seem to have a "hit or miss" reputation. Some good, some not so good.

I wasn't happy with the overall quality of my mic kit and returned it. Some of the standards were sloppy looking and were not easy to align inside the mics, and the case was junk. It wasn't the HF kit though. The 3 piece kit available at the local HF here is only accurate to .001" so useless for what we're doing. I'm going to buy a different kit locally soon. I'll still get a cheap kit but hopefully it will be a little nicer than the last one.

Many of the low and mid priced mics available from various vendors look identical except for their colors. So who knows maybe they're all made in the same factory. Many places are pretty good about accepting returns so at least that is a good thing.
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84 Westy 4spd sold

[stevey88]

Ok, Got my Mitutoyo gauge blocks. These are grade 2 blocks and the 1” block are +4/-2 micro-inch at 68 degree and the temp coefficient is 6.4 micro-in per degree F. so it made little difference for us as the HF mic only measure to 0.0001”. Using the 1” mic, I got the following reading from measuring the blocks:

0.1” blocks ( that means it could be 0.100004” or 0.099998” ) I got 0.1001”, 0.25” block I got 0.2501 inch and the 1” block I got 1.0001” so the error is only 0.0001”, not bad at all.
I then adjust the 1”-2” mic using the 1” gauge block as standard and then measure the 2” gauge block and got a reading of 2.0000”. I am pretty happy with this.

I then use the 0-1” mic and the 1”-2” mic to measure the 1” standard that came with the HF mic set and the reading I got is 1.0005 from the 0-1” mic and 1.004 from the 1”-2” mic. Using the 1”-2” mic and the 2”-3” mic to measure the 2” standard that came with the HF mic set and I got a reading of 2.0004” on both mics. So the two standards from the kit give a error of 0.0004” ( yours may not be the same ). Note that both mic are adjusted using the Mitutoyo gauge blocks for these measurements. I now believe the method I suggested before ( using the measured value of the 1” kit standard to adjust the 1”-2” mic and the measured value of the 2” mic to adjust the 2”-3” mic ) will give a reading that is more accurate. Also note that the Mitutoyo gauge block kit cost a lot more than the HF mic set so don't bother to buy one.

Now does any one know how to use the optical flat that came with the gauge blocks ?
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Steve

87 Westfalia full camper 4 speed

[tencentlife]

They're actually pretty good.

It's not that big a deal to make a mic, it needs a leadscrew that holds to a true 40 tpi, the rest is just parts.

I would think the racking gear, if that's what they use, in a dial indicator would be harder to manufacture accurately, but even the cheap ones are not bad at all.
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[stevey88]

[klucz]

10-4
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84 Westy 4spd sold

[tencentlife]

By the way the running finish in all those bearings looks fine, what you need to check is the diametrical crush (I explained in psych's tread recently how to check that), and the fit of the #1 flanges to the bearing saddles. There should be ~.002" interference on each.
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Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[klucz]

Thanks for the tip xoo. I've been careful about keeping everything together at room temp and not warming up the tools and stds. with my hands (and making sure everything is clean). I'll keep it in mind when I take my stuff out and about.
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84 Westy 4spd sold

[xoo00oox]

......Keep in mind the temp of the tool, the standard, and the piece you are measuring should all be at room temp. When I did machine work our tools needed to be checked every so many days. They had to be left in a QA room that was climate controlled for so many hours before testing. The higher quality the tool, the less it will change. The tool would then get a sticker telling you when the calibration expired, you did not want to get caught using a tool that was out of date....

[klucz]

Steve, using the method which you described gave me measurements even further off from the machinists (.0006-.0010 lower). Guess it doesn't really matter that much though.

10c, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge. I've been hung up on the red-dot/blue-dot thing. I see what you mean about how it's all relative. I'll talk to the machinist next week and hopefully sync up with him.

Still have to figure out a bunch of other stuff but it's good to get the ball rolling a little.
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84 Westy 4spd sold

[tencentlife]

I think I trust my 2" standard more than I woud trust that method. I would expect the greatest cumulative variance along the entire extent of the leadscrew.

But more importantly, you can get hung up on absolute accuracy of these instruments, when what you will actually need them for much of the time is relative, or comparative accuracy, meaning using the individual instruments to make small relative measurements, where cumulative inaccuracies you might see over the whole extent of an instrument's range diminish to insignificance in the range for which you need to compare a dimension. When you are building the engine, the size of a thing ends up being less important than how it fits with another thing ( a lot of life is that way).

First thing's first, though; if you are working with a machinist, you need to synchronise your watches, so to speak. Take the mics you will use at home to his shop, with your standards, and measure each other's shit, and measure a few work pieces. This takes 5 minutes. If there are large inconsistencies make a determination as to whose is apt to be more accurate (it'll be his, because he's not going to change his for one customer) and make yours agree with his, i.e. adjust your mic to his standard. Then, on any pieces where you are dealing with him, use that mic so you're on the same page. I work with a crank grinder who is hours away and this coordination is essential, but it happens that all our mics agreed to a fat tenth.

As for setting bearing fit and clearance, everything you do involves relative measurements, absolute numbers float abstractly in the periphery but don't determine how things get done or in most cases whether something is even acceptable. You mic your journals, you transfer that measurement to your bore gauge at zero, and you gauge the bores to see what the clearance will be. Only the inaccuracy of the bore gauge across a few thousandths matters here, The mic initially is used to decide that the journals are within spec range, after that it's just being used as a fancy locking caliper.

Where you need your mic for absolute accuracy is in determining parts selections, when you need to conform to other parties' specs. But if you had an error of 4 tenths on your mic against a crank manufacturer's numbers, would it cause you not to buy that crank? Probably not. You have to assay the potential degree of error within the context.
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Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[stevey88]

So the measurement you have now is close to what the machine shop told you ?
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Steve

87 Westfalia full camper 4 speed

[stevey88]

Yes, this is what I meant.
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Steve

87 Westfalia full camper 4 speed

[klucz]

Steve,

What you said about setting the mics makes sense. I think I did what you described.

Set the 0-1" mic at 0 (closed).
Measured the 1" standard and found it to be just a smidge over (less than .0001").
Set the 1-2" mic at a smidge over using the 1" std.
Measured the 2" std. with the 1-2" mic and found it to be .0004" over.
Set the 2-3" mic at .0004" over using the 2" std.

Does that sound right?

Thanks,

Paul
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84 Westy 4spd sold

[stevey88]

klucz,

[klucz]

Hi psych. Was wondering what happened to you. I've been studying your thread very closely, tons of great info there. And thanks for your comments and suggestions. It's a steep learning curve for sure and I appreciate any feedback I can get.

The saddles had me puzzled too, as well as the wear on the backs of the bearings. I posted in the STF wasser/oxyboxer forum and got some interesting feedback about 1.9's and Type1's. The bearings can get pounded into the saddles by the crank. It makes sense and scares the sh!t outta me.

I've been playing with my fancy-shmancy new tools but my mind is in "OH SHI!!!!" mode right. Trying to be careful and not break anything. I think I've figured out the DB gauge and I guess I can check the saddles for roundness. My 2-3" mic seems to be off by about .0005". Don't think that I can check clearances accurately until I'm sure about the mics. Think I'll return the mics since they're new and get a different set.

I already have a new set of Mahle mains but was considering reusing the old ones. Not because of money but because of quality, the original stuff is supposedly better than what's on the market nowadays. Still not sure which I'm going to use yet though. That is, if the case is still OK.
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84 Westy 4spd sold