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redcanoe Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2007 Posts: 150
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:47 pm Post subject: hi powered headlite overheat |
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I have a 5 year old hi powered headlite relay kit. Recently, with hi beams on, I detected the smell of something getting alittle warm. I accessed the relay and fuse holder. Indeed, when the hi beams are on, the wire heading into the fuse holder gets hot and the fuse holder gets quite warm. This appears to be the source of the smell. Low beam only no heat is noticed.
Indeed with hi beams left on long enough all the lights go out and then come back on when the low beams are activated.
Anybody else encounter this ? I understand GW has a new generation hi powered relay kit. |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:13 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like the relay is going south.
Change it with a new one and see if you have the same symptoms.
Take a quick look to the high beam wiring and see if one of the wires has rubbed through somewhere & shorting the relay. _________________ T.K. |
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dan vandenheede Samba Member
Joined: February 01, 2005 Posts: 49 Location: Niles, MI
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:33 am Post subject: |
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check your grounds too- circle of spade connectors behind fuse panel where a bunch of grounds, including yoiur headlights go to. mine heated up, causing them to become loose then I lost my headlights. I added extra grounds behind grill from headlights right to body. |
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PDXWesty Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2006 Posts: 6235 Location: Portland OR
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:55 am Post subject: |
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I was thinking bad relay as well. They're only a couple bucks each. You could up the relay amperage from 30 to 40 amps if you want. They're pretty common and you can get them anywhere.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=330-070 _________________ 89 Westy 2.1 Auto |
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tencentlife Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006 Posts: 10067 Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 9:21 am Post subject: |
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The wires in that kit are undersized for the high beam loads, a lot of heat builds up at the connections, and especially at the backfeed into the fuse panel. All these points get quite warm on mine (has the GW kit) and the amps are being dropped to 23. The lowbeam relay is the only part of the kit that is actually capable of handling its load if you also upped the bulb wattages, you have to up the highbeam relay to a 40A to have any margin there.
Even going to bigger wire in the kit doesn't solve the panel backfeed problem. I'm going to do an endrun around the whole thing with a dedicated high-power feeder to weatherproof relays behind the front grille, and just use the OEM wiring to trigger those. _________________ Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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redcanoe Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2007 Posts: 150
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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GW tells me that this can happen to their early gen kits as things get old. They have redesigned and sell a replacement. I'm just curious as to why all of a sudden a problem with the high beam ? |
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bac914 Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2008 Posts: 112 Location: Denver
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Redcanoe: Just curious if you have had a chance to replace the relay to determine if that is what the cause was.
I have a similar problem. My right side gets hot when high beams are on and eventually the fuse blows. I repaired a partially melted wire once, hoping that was it, but the problem is back. My relay doesn't get warm, but the wire that runs to the light gets warm. The stock wire is the warmest part just after the connection to the new wire that heads to the relay. All the other wires are fine (as well as the left side).
I also have upgraded bulbs (80w low and 100w high).
I'm going to start with the grounds first, but curious what you've found since your original post.. |
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redcanoe Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2007 Posts: 150
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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bac914
No, I haven't got around to doing any parts replacements yet. Chatted with GW and they offered to sell me "half a kit" minus the bulbs. I was thinking I should just replace all the wiring and relays. I'm pondering Terry Kays kit and procrastinating. |
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K58 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 1173 Location: Santa Barbara
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tencentlife Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006 Posts: 10067 Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:46 am Post subject: |
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If you up the high beam wattage to 400 but still feed the current back into the panel on the existing feed wire, the OEM circuit is inadequate for the 33A of current. That and the wire sold with the old GW kit, at least, is also inadequate for the current. The wire heats up on the output side of the relay-switched circuit, and the wire feeding back into the pane gets very hot. That wire's panel connector is getting cooked. I found both of these going on on my setup, where I've changed the high beam relay to a 40A, otherwise that relay was heating up too. All the extra resistance was reducing the 33A of anticipated current down to only 23A.
The backfeed is only done so you can use the panel's existing fuses, but there's no practical way I can see to upsize the backfed circuit, no matter what you do with the relays and their wiring. One answer is to just come directly off the high-beam relay with upsized wire and add your own inline fuses on the way to the headlights. Or take all the headlights current off the main battery-to-panel feeder, which I also usually find heat-damaged on late vans, and run a dedicated feeder directly to the area behind the front grille and use the existing headlight circuits to switch relays there. _________________ Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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vweggie Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2007 Posts: 219 Location: End of the road, Vancouver Island
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:11 am Post subject: |
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My GW kit has cooked 3 relays over the 4 years I've had it. The most recent one was a couple days ago when the insulation on one of the wires actually caught fire! After the relay dies I still have lowbeams but the highbeam circuit is dead. I'm interested in a solution as well. _________________ 1990 Multivan 2.1 AT |
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Classicvibe Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2009 Posts: 743 Location: Salt Lake City
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:19 am Post subject: |
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Mine has never worked...the low beam is fine, but the high beam freaking melts the fuse in like 3 seconds. I went through and sured up all my connections, but still no-go. I would love to know that it was a bad relay, rather then a bad installer (ME)! _________________ On a mission, the destination is just an excuse.
Syncro Solstice 2022...see you there!
1986.5 Wolfsburg Syncro Westfalia Poptop Weekender Transporter |
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bac914 Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2008 Posts: 112 Location: Denver
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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So I cleaned up all my grounds tonight in hope that would fix it, but as tencent predicted, the wiring is still inadequate. I have not looked for the backfeed wire to see if that is getting hot too, I'll have to check that out as well. My first thought after tonight was to run a heavier gauge wire to the right side and replace the one that is getting hot. It sounds like that solution will just move the problem to the next weak link.
If I put back in the lower wattage high beam bulbs (55w), will that reduce the load enough to bring it back into the limits of the stock system? I could probably live with just having the higher 80 watt low beam and the 100w/55w high beam combo if that works.
Or, I'll take tencents approach at somepoint and rewire the setup...in the meantime, I'll do without the high beams. |
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thatvwbusguy Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2007 Posts: 1712 Location: Newmarket, New Hampshire
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Going back to the 55W high beams should help for sure, it couldn't possibly hurt.
I have always found that 400W of high beam is pretty much overkill unless you are planning to run the Baja 1000.
I generally recommend people who install my relay kits to go with Hella 80/100W 9004 in the main beams and a high quality 55W H3 in the high beam. This not only helps to keep things running cooler, but also tends to make for a longer lasting high beam bulbs. If your lenses are properly aimed and relatively clean, 310W of high beam should be more than adequate.
I use TXL wire for my relay kits which is more flexible and can withstand a bit more heat (125C vs. 105C) than the standard PVC insulated wire found at the hardware store. The 12GA wire used to carry the headlight current (terminals 30 and 87) can safely handle 25A without overheating. Also, since the cost differential between 30A relays and 40A relays is next to nothing I only use 40A to help provide some safety reserve factor at the relay as well.
Before I started selling the kit for 86-91 vans, I ran this exact setup in my '87 Wolfsburg for several months using 80/100W mains and 100W highs to be sure they could handle the heat. I had zero problems, but then ultimately decided to swap in a round grill with e-Code lenses and Hella 80/100W H4's instead. Way better usable light output and I like the look better as well...
Good luck,
Jay |
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bac914 Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2008 Posts: 112 Location: Denver
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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I did more experimenting/troubleshooting tonight, but still have not found the solution.
I swapped my original 45/65 low/hi bulb back in and the disconnected the high beam bulb and was still getting significant warmth on the stock wire supplying current from the relay to the light. It is the most hot just after the connection between the stock wire and the relay supply wire.
I also confirmed tencents observation on his van that the back feed wire to the panel is getting warm as well, but curiously not as warm as the feed to the light from the relay.
So it would appear that my high beam stock supply wire for the passenger side light has been compromised somewhere, or perhaps the connectors I used are not up to the task, or the installation of them was not adequate in some way. This is not an issue on the driver side, those wires are all cool.
So if I run a new wire from the relay, to the passenger side, I'm going to have to cut into the stock wire at the bulb harness. Are there any particular connectors or methods I should use that are more efficient to make this connection? and how about the connectors at the relays? Should I swap those out for something of higher grade?
Thanks
Brian. |
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vwlovr Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2006 Posts: 1122 Location: on the road
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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bac914 wrote: |
I did more experimenting/troubleshooting tonight, but still have not found the solution.
I swapped my original 45/65 low/hi bulb back in and the disconnected the high beam bulb and was still getting significant warmth on the stock wire supplying current from the relay to the light. It is the most hot just after the connection between the stock wire and the relay supply wire.
I also confirmed tencents observation on his van that the back feed wire to the panel is getting warm as well, but curiously not as warm as the feed to the light from the relay.
So it would appear that my high beam stock supply wire for the passenger side light has been compromised somewhere, or perhaps the connectors I used are not up to the task, or the installation of them was not adequate in some way. This is not an issue on the driver side, those wires are all cool.
So if I run a new wire from the relay, to the passenger side, I'm going to have to cut into the stock wire at the bulb harness. Are there any particular connectors or methods I should use that are more efficient to make this connection? and how about the connectors at the relays? Should I swap those out for something of higher grade?
Thanks
Brian. |
i don't think connectors will be a problem. old wires are more likely causes of issues. fwiw, i had problems with this kit and it was user install error. i had wired the relay wrong. i have since completely rewired all my headlights so that they all go thru relays. one for lows and one for each high. it is a bit overkill, but it works.
good luck! |
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thatvwbusguy Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2007 Posts: 1712 Location: Newmarket, New Hampshire
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:20 am Post subject: |
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Replacement 9004 style connectors are available at most parts stores. H3 connectors can be sourced online if you can't find them locally. Be particularly picky about your ground connections if you are generating heat on the load side of the relays that shouldn't be there.
On both of my vans I added a secondary ground for the headlights as close to the bulb as possible. To make a good splice, use one of the butt connectors with built in adhesive and shrink wrap to make a good weatherproof connection on the ground wire as close to the bulb connector as possible and then run a short 14GA wire back to a good ground point on the body of the van and connect it with a ring terminal.
Most marine shops should have high quality electrical terminals available in small quantities. If you can't source them locally, I can send some out to you. I can also provide any replacement parts for the relay setup that might need attention.
Jay |
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campbell27 Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 10 Location: Foresthill, CA
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:17 pm Post subject: IGnition |
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Becareful-I'm pretty sure that wiring my headlight wrong burnt my iginition switch. The diagram that comes with the GW kit for the fuse box was reversed from mine and I didn't catch it. |
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Hooptie Love Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2009 Posts: 108 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:25 am Post subject: |
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sorry to resurect this thread but I am wondering if anyone has a wiring diagram to directly wire the headlights to the relays. I have the GW kit that is about 3 years old and suddenly my turn signals were causing the headlights to flash when turning left. I tried to troubleshoot myself but finally gave up and called the mechanic. The shop here says everything must be returned to stock to work and that there is no other way. These guys are purists and frankly piss me off everytime I go to them but they are one of the only mechanics around with good vanagon experience. I still want high powered headlights. I think my system must have fried some wires somewhere along the line and I will need to rewire the signals. I figure I can wire the headlights the same way I wired in driving lights. With a dedicated harness that goes directly to the lights from the battery with a fuse in line. I am not awesome with electrical but I think that my thinking is correct. Will somebody confirm that I can run directly from the battery or at least set up a separate feed to an independent headlight panel. Beyond that I still need to find my issues with the turn signals and other wiring. |
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GBA 88West LA Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2008 Posts: 1279 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:44 am Post subject: |
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check thatvwbusguys website, i believe he has instructions on there _________________ 88 Westy GL Vanaru 07 2.5 EJ25/AA Trans/oiling plates, 1.14 3rd-.77-4th..solar powered cabin |
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