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TD Turbo interchange
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jarad
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 1:54 pm    Post subject: TD Turbo interchange Reply with quote

I have a garett t-3(i believe) on my 1.6 Westy and it has too much lag. It almost makes the turbo pointless. I do, however, have a exhaust manifold and turbo off of my B4 TDi with a 1Z engine. I kow it's a smaller turbo and should spool up faster. can I transplant this onto my westy with out and major mods? anyone try with good results?
Or.. is there any type of mod to get this thing to spool up a little quicker?
TIA Embarassed
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what I have found;

For an IDI turbo diesel, a Garrett T2 and a KKK K14 turbo will not produce the boost lag you are experiencing. They also seem to be interchangeable. The T2 is easy to find in Germany, hard to find here. The K14 you can still get in the USA brand new.

A turbo rebuilder might also be able to get it to spool faster.
http://www.gpopshop.com/rebuilding.html

Andrew Libby has a newer style TDI turbo on his IDI turbo diesel. I am sure he will comment and knows more about all the turbo options than I do but here are some links to what he has done;
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21424.0
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=25091.0

I hope this helps.
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jarad
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks, wildenbeast.
yeah, from the factory, they came with the k14. the engine in there now is a JR code, i believe. I acquired this garrett knowing it might be a bit big, but didn't realize the lag would be sooooo dramatic. i have a complete 96 passat tdi. i do know that the manifold will bolt up to the head. the ex flanges are different, but that's no biggie. maybe i'll just put in on and find out. eff it, right? if it works....cool. if not, i'll swap it back or buy a k14. i was hoping someone here might have tried it with promising results..
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before you go to all that trouble, try turning your max fuel screw in clockwise on the injection pump, by half a turn.

That should have a big effect on the boost and overall power, although your idle speed will rise a bit.

If you want to keep the screw set there, install a pyrometer so you can keep an eye on EGTs.
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i do have an EGT and boost gauges. When i turned up the smoke screw, boost didn't increase more than 1 or 2 psi at best, but the egt's went up dramatically! cruising through the neighborhood got me into the 900's!! Shocked

now that i turned the screw back(and readjusted the idle) i'm back to about 500-550 in the 'hood.

the beast won't come into boost until about 3000 rpms. that's about as useless as a diaper AFTER you poop yourself. ya know?
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. I have a T3 on a 1.9 engine, and I'm at about 16 psi boost by about 2200 rpm.

There must be a big difference in the ability of the 1.6 and 1.9 engines to generate boost using a T3. Either that, or maybe your T3 is pretty tired, or there's a boost leak or something. You don't live at an especially high elevation.

Is this a JX engine? I believe they came with de-tuned injection pumps relative to the other 1.6TD engines. I wonder if that contributes to the issue, too.
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmm. the engine is a JR code out of a german TD golf. I am running the NA Vanagon injection pump with the volume screw turned up. when i turn up the screw more, it makes a little more power, but the boost doesn't follow in suit and the EGT's skyrocket. The turbo is tight and seems to be in really good shape. Perhaps there is a boost leak that i haven't found, but i'm maxing at around 5-6 psi. The intake and exhaust manifold are off of a TD jetta/golf, so they are not the quantum vanagon units. still seems as though my boost levels should be higher. And, i still would like it to come into boost earlier
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jarad wrote:
I am running the NA Vanagon injection pump with the volume screw turned up.


So you don't have an LDA on this pump? That's the "flying saucer" piece that controls fuelling under boost.

If not, then I suspect that's got a lot to do with your symptoms. Everything you do with the smoke screw on an NA pump is going to be a compromise, at best.
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, I do not have the LDA enrichment. Although, I would suspect that to have a direct correlation to my boost issue. I would think it would spool up the same, just not make the power it would had the enrichment been there. I can very well been wrong. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be the first time. Embarassed

so, still no insight on how the 1Z turbo would respond on this JR?
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Witless Joe wrote:
Interesting. I have a T3 on a 1.9 engine, and I'm at about 16 psi boost by about 2200 rpm.

There must be a big difference in the ability of the 1.6 and 1.9 engines to generate boost using a T3. Either that, or maybe your T3 is pretty tired, or there's a boost leak or something. You don't live at an especially high elevation.

Is this a JX engine? I believe they came with de-tuned injection pumps relative to the other 1.6TD engines. I wonder if that contributes to the issue, too.


I have has a few turbo cars...all modded, one of which was a '97 A4 running a Holset HY35 at over 25psi.

The 1.6 TD with the T-3 Garret has nearly ZERO turbo lag on my '83. Many of my friend have commented about the quick spool of the tiny turbo.

I agree with Witless, that maybe the T3 you have is tired, or maybe the wastegate is having issues?

Have you been to the Diesel Vanagon list or VWDiesel.net?

Also, turning you Max-fuel screw won't give you more boost. You may boost faster because you are fueling more and perhaps spike. To up your boost you need to get a Boost controller of some sort.
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its been my experience that without the flying saucer the turbo doenst spool up even if its all stock. I lost the tube from the turbo to the sauser once and it felt like i lost half the engine.

I made a k14-k24 hybrid and tried it on a 1.6 with a TDI cam grind. It would make boost right off idle. I also tried a T3 with a funky flange adapter on the same engine. It took a little longer to come one boost but ran 20 psi right up to the limiter. The hole engine ran HOT

I think you need a pump with the saucer..

jcl
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure the OP understands how you regulate boost on a motor? Basically you need to control the wastegate actuator in some way, shape or form.

If you lose a line to your wastegate it will not function as intended.

One Line comes off the turbo and one off the actuator. You need both.

The only way to change boost is to either physically manipulate the wastegate (Replace or modify etc) or to install a controller (a bleed or otherwise.

Adding fuel with the Max Fuel Screw on the side of the pump or the "smoke" screw on the top (saucer?) will not get you more boost. As I said before, you may spike a bit as you're motor will have more fuel, quicker and the wastegate may not reign it in as quickly as before.

I'm fairly new to Diesel Turbos but the principle is the same on a gasser or diesel. Changing your air/fuel/timing will not net you more boost. Your Wastegate is god.

If your wastegate is stuck open or opening too soon, that would cause a loss of boost..as would a cracked hose ore fitting. Check everything.
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tozovr wrote:
I'm fairly new to Diesel Turbos but the principle is the same on a gasser or diesel. Changing your air/fuel/timing will not net you more boost. Your Wastegate is god.

Actually, from my experience, turbo diesels and turbo gassers behave quite differently in respect of their wastegates. What you say is arguably true for gassers, but not for diesels.

The point isn't that the wastegate mechanism operates differently in either fuel's turbo application - it's a simple spring & valve mechanism and operates exactly the same way in each application. The point is that if a diesel engine doesn't generate enough heat (ie. an adequate fuelling setting at the injection pump), then it will not spool the turbine, and so it won't generate enough boost that the wastegate even enters the picture. By contrast, a gasser running "lean" will produce all the exhaust heat (and then some) to inflate your engine block like bubble gum if you don't have a wastegate setup to curtail it. (Cue the lecture about the concept of "lean" being totally inapplicable to diesel engines...)

If you want maximum performance from a diesel engine, you turn up the fuelling just to the point that it no longer has enough air to burn all the fuel (resulting in black exhaust smoke, unburned fuel, and high EGTs). Turn the fuel screw back counterclockwise again to suit your aesthetic and environmental conscience.

I run my 1.9 without any wastegate hose connected to the turbo at all. It's just capped off, which I believe is the way Andrew Libby runs his IDI TD Vanagons.

So my wastegate never gets a signal to start opening at "overboost" levels. I have effectively deleted the wastegate. I *do* connect the intake manifold hose to the LDA, so that I get the additional fuelling under boost. But the wastegate is just a problem to be circumvented, so that hose is capped.

Under these circumstances, my boost is controlled exclusively by fuelling. At a fully floored accellerator pedal, boost builds commensurate to whatever exhaust heat is being generated, which, in turn, is determined by the max fuel screw.

Roughly speaking, every quarter turn of the max fuel screw gets me about another 3 - 4 PSI of max boost at full throttle.

So, contrary to your submission above, my experience is that fuel controls maximum boost. When I get the screw up to the point that maximum boost starts getting worrying, I just back off the smoke screw, and get less max boost at full throttle.
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Witless Joe wrote:
tozovr wrote:
I'm fairly new to Diesel Turbos but the principle is the same on a gasser or diesel. Changing your air/fuel/timing will not net you more boost. Your Wastegate is god.

Actually, from my experience, turbo diesels and turbo gassers behave quite differently in respect of their wastegates. What you say is arguably true for gassers, but not for diesels.

The point isn't that the wastegate mechanism operates differently in either fuel's turbo application - it's a simple spring & valve mechanism and operates exactly the same way in each application. The point is that if a diesel engine doesn't generate enough heat (ie. an adequate fuelling setting at the injection pump), then it will not spool the turbine, and so it won't generate enough boost that the wastegate even enters the picture. By contrast, a gasser running "lean" will produce all the exhaust heat (and then some) to inflate your engine block like bubble gum if you don't have a wastegate setup to curtail it. (Cue the lecture about the concept of "lean" being totally inapplicable to diesel engines...)

If you want maximum performance from a diesel engine, you turn up the fuelling just to the point that it no longer has enough air to burn all the fuel (resulting in black exhaust smoke, unburned fuel, and high EGTs). Turn the fuel screw back counterclockwise again to suit your aesthetic and environmental conscience.

I run my 1.9 without any wastegate hose connected to the turbo at all. It's just capped off, which I believe is the way Andrew Libby runs his IDI TD Vanagons.

So my wastegate never gets a signal to start opening at "overboost" levels. I have effectively deleted the wastegate. I *do* connect the intake manifold hose to the LDA, so that I get the additional fuelling under boost. But the wastegate is just a problem to be circumvented, so that hose is capped.

Under these circumstances, my boost is controlled exclusively by fuelling. At a fully floored accellerator pedal, boost builds commensurate to whatever exhaust heat is being generated, which, in turn, is determined by the max fuel screw.

Roughly speaking, every quarter turn of the max fuel screw gets me about another 3 - 4 PSI of max boost at full throttle.

So, contrary to your submission above, my experience is that fuel controls maximum boost. When I get the screw up to the point that maximum boost starts getting worrying, I just back off the smoke screw, and get less max boost at full throttle.


I'm agreeing with your posts above, the point I am making is to Jarad's Post about not seeing more boost when he turned the smoke screw. Your fueling shouldn't be controlling boost. You should have a firm grasp on controlling that with a controller, not leaving it to a related function of the fueling system.

In Your case the wastegate doesn't open because your Turbo likely spins out beforehand or the because the motor doesn't have the air/fuel to make enough exhaust gas to spin it faster. You aren't controlling your boost, but your PSI is limited by your turbo. On a gasser or a bigger turbo'd TD you would be risking an overboost situation by "controlling" you boost with the fueling.

The 15g turbo in my Volvo 855 wouldn't boost much over 18-19psi with the setup it had...the compressor just becomes horribly inefficient. Running a 16G helped and I could hold much higher boost pressures. Basically the opposite issue that you deal with on yours.

One thing I have never heard of is heat being required for building Boost. heat is a result of boost. The concept just doesn't click for me. Adequate fueling with a well set up turbo will net you Lower EGTs, not higher.

At the end of the day, my opinion to the original poster still stands. before embarking on a swap for something that will spool faster, he should check some basics out. The T3 has virtually no lag when set up properly....it's a tiny tiny turbo. It will spin out quicker than a bigger one, but that's not lag.
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 4:56 am    Post subject: diesel turbos Reply with quote

Where is Libby?
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 5:56 am    Post subject: Re: diesel turbos Reply with quote

POS wrote:
Where is Libby?


Sort of what I'm thinking. LOL. There is a good chance I'm completely wrong, just ask my wife Smile
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm here. Life is busy (but very fun).

My perspective on turbo sizing comes from living at 7,000ft and driving these wonderful heavy boxes. Austin, TX is at all of 500ft of elevation, so there is a considerable difference.

Turbo lag is directly proportional to exhaust flow and so a bone stock 1.9 will spool considerably faster than a 1.6 with the same turbo installed.

From my experience, a properly functioning T3 on a stock 1.6TD will typically spool at around 3,000 rpms. Without the LDA, one is resigned to blowing smoke under full pedal off boost and resultant high EGTs. It sounds like Jarad's experience is exactly what I would expect from a T3 on a 1.6TD engine installed in a vanagon. I have always found the lag of the K24s or T3s in a vanagon with a 1.6TD to be intolerable even when functioning properly and fitted with the proper LDA pump.

Heat is indeed what creates boost. The turbocharger recovers waste heat from the exhaust gases and turns it into the useful work of cramming additional air into the engine's intake.

I have run with a conventional wastegated turbo without a functional wastegate before but at this point it is not my preferred way. Regulating max boost to be somewhat in the efficiency range of the turbo is beneficial for a lot of reasons. Once significantly out of the efficiency range of a turbo, one can actually hurt power, fuel economy, EGTs, etc over running less boost as it can create excessive exhaust back-pressure.

My current IDI TD Vanagon has a VNT 15 with mechanical control. Excellent fast spool, great power, well regulated max boost of a little over 20 psi. It will put a 2.1 WBX to absolute shame. It will even outperform a 2.0L ABA inline-4 gasser and still manage better fuel economy. This is with a stock long block aside from updating to head studs (and mains and rod bolts) and using the MLS AAZ gasket.

Tozovr I'm not sure what to make of your comments about your T3 spooling so quickly or being tiny. It is well over-sized for a 1.6TD and even over-sized for a 1.9TD that is running stock boost pressures. Are you sure you have a T3 fitted? If so then there must be other modifications done to your engine or turbo to reduce turbo lag. The K14, T2, K03 fitted to the 1.9TD (AAZ) or the 1.9TDI (1z, AHU) are all considerably smaller than the T3 (or K24 which is sized almost exactly the same as the T3) and will spool considerably faster.

To address the original poster's question. The K03 from a 1Z is a much better match to the 1.6TD, especially in a vanagon. Running less than 15 psi of max boost you will only gain performance from the swap. The only downside is the difficulty of the installation. You will require an adapter plate to mount it to your 1.6TD exhaust manifold (unless you got a k03 from an AAZ and matching exhaust manifold) and you will require modifying the exhaust to fit it's turbine output pattern. The compressor inlet and outlet are both smaller in diameter than the T3 and so adjusting those will be necessary as well. The oil supply line should fit with slight massaging. I'm not sure if the oil return flange on the K03 is the same as the T3. I believe it is, but would have to go look. If so, then you could use your T3 return line. If not, then adjusting that connection would be necessary as well. As has been mentioned, the T2 or K14 are options as well as they are both much more appropriately sized for a 1.6TD and the exhaust manifold to turbine flange matches that of the T3 (or K24) as does the turbine outlet pattern. The compressor outlet is also the same diameter with the inlet being smaller. Oil supply fitting is the same. Oil return fitting varies. Definitely an easier install in some ways, but having a turbo and using it can be easier than buying and selling. Depends on what you want to do in that regard.

WRT other mods, there are certainly other mods that can be done to achieve faster spooling/better performance, but the FIRST step I'd take is to ditch the T3 and install a more appropriately sized turbo. I would also get a proper LDA equipped injection pump. I don't believe exhaust diameter has been mentioned, but definitely go with at least 2.25" diameter tubing from the turbo back. Just those changes alone would transform the performance even if only running stock max boost of 10 psi. From there, an intercooler and aux oil to air cooler should be fitted and then increasing max boost to 15 psi would be the next step while carefully keeping an eye on oil temps and EGTs.

Andrew
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libby:Not that up on turbos yet and who makes the 'VNT u use and where do you have yours mounted, intercooled at that psi? Stock wbx.
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:



-------------------------

Heat is indeed what creates boost. The turbocharger recovers waste heat from the exhaust gases and turns it into the useful work of cramming additional air into the engine's intake.

-------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
Tozovr I'm not sure what to make of your comments about your T3 spooling so quickly or being tiny. It is well over-sized for a 1.6TD and even over-sized for a 1.9TD that is running stock boost pressures. Are you sure you have a T3 fitted? If so then there must be other modifications done to your engine or turbo to reduce turbo lag. The K14, T2, K03 fitted to the 1.9TD (AAZ) or the 1.9TDI (1z, AHU) are all considerably smaller than the T3 (or K24 which is sized almost exactly the same as the T3) and will spool considerably faster.


I split up your response as it pertains to me Smile

Heat creates boost seems like semantics. Sure it dooes, but you couldn't heat the turbo with, say a flame, and get it to turn that wheel...Exhaust gas spins that wheel. Cooler gas or hotter gas, but gas.


My 1.6TD does have a few mods done to it, but nothing out of the ordinary (boost controller, the Wastegate mod, open element filter to the D-pillar etc). Where I think the discrepancy is, is what my definition of bad turbo lag is. I've become accustomed to Gassers, some with bigger (way bigger) and some with smaller turbos. When off boost the gassers tend to be really slow off idle as compared to a Diesel. Me comparing the two, makes me feel like the Vanagon rips (relative to my '87 WBX) off the line LOL. Essentially I must be feeling the Diesel being stronger off boost, not less lag.

When I picked this van up, I was just blown away by how much more tractable it is as opposed to my old WBX or even some of the other turbo cars I have.

This is why I refer to the T3 as Tiny. Again...all relative I guess.

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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

morymob, the thread that wildenbeast linked is a build thread for my VNT install:

http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21424.0

tozovr, all things are definitely relative to perspective. Off-boost performance and turbo lag are both dramatically worsened at 7,000ft of elevation and so I'm much more sensitive than those living at lower elevations. With the T3 or K24 I've had moderate inclines where I was stuck in second gear because even with the engine revved out I couldn't catch boost in the next gear shifting as fast as possible and without boost it couldn't accelerate. Even a short hill seems long when you're stuck in second gear and the speed limit is 40 or 50 mph. The smaller turbos never have that issue and the VNT is just gravy with boost at any operational rpm.
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