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Porsche 930 CV conversion axle length?
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SyncroGhia
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been doing a little bit of investigating into the Audi front driveshaft... if someone else has already posted this then my apologies.

The assembled length of the factory Audi driveshaft that we're all after is 692mm.

Those early driveshafts have a stud and nut arrangement unlike the later Allen Bolt arrangement so the measurement is longer for the earlier shafts than the later driveshafts.

I'm going to see if I can find some Audi driveshafts which will suit as both front and rear for the large 108mm CV joints and will report when I have some findings.

MG
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolfgang16 uses Audi driveshafts, some info in this thread

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5964054#5964054
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice twist in the Empi axle!
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Front driveshaft,Syncro
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the clearance issue of the outside front cv boots on 16" syncro:

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You also gotta glue the boot:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
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Syncroincity
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I almost just had a stroke trying to read French sideways. Shocked

What kind of sealant/glue does it call for? RTV, or more like an epoxy?
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syncroincity wrote:
I almost just had a stroke trying to read French sideways. Shocked

What kind of sealant/glue does it call for? RTV, or more like an epoxy?



Laughing Laughing
It's D 009 100 03 that's all I know for now Wink
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there you go:

it got superceded by this one:


http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/ES463689/ES463689/
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Syncroincity
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, window adhesive. OK, thanks... that's available at FLAPS from Permatex or similar at more reasonable prices. Cool
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derekdrew
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There is this thing -- sometimes called a "spacer plate" but goes by other names -- that makes it easier to install and uninstall cv joint bolts that often came on the older 100mm CV joints on Vanagon. These spacer plates also help distribute the load when you are using a cv joint boot that has integral metal that covers the bolt holes since this metal is thin. Porsche is adament about using these spacer plates when using anything that covers the CV joint, such as these types of boots. In other cases, the spacer plates are very handy when doing 930 installations in Vanagons because they provide flexibility in the length of the bolts that may be used, merely by acting as a spacer. Another use for them is simply to make the installation and de-installation easier for a reason that escapes me at the moment, but it can be freaky with the bolts falling out and getting grease on them during this procedure, as I recall.

The part number of the spacer plate in Germany is 251 501 357, but this part is not carried in the USA, and it may also be out at VW in Germany. My guess is that Classic Parts in Germany may have some left through. I was able to find out the Porshce part number for these and was able to verify that the Porsche ones are for 108mm joints (930 size) and are not for the earlier 100mm size. The part number of the Porsche part is 911 332 191 00 and you can order it from Auto Atlanta and from other places. The google search query would then be exactly this:

("911 332 191 00" OR "91133219100")

Note the use of the parenthesis and that the OR expression must be capitalized or its boolean function is disabled. Its most important to put the quotes around expressions with spaces in them, but in practice, whether your search phrases have space in them or not, all your google seearches that include numbers should have quotes around the number or else google isn't sure whether to take you seriously.

It threw me for a loup that if you look at the 2nd expression (without spaces) 91133219100 the part number ends in "100" and so I was afraid that is was going to be for 100mm joints instead of 108mm, but it turned out to be for 108mm.

I think these should be regarded as optional unless there is a CV joint boot flange with thin metal between the bolt and the CV joint, or unless you happen to want a spacer of that size with the bolt you chose. Three for each joint means $30 per joint. If you have six joints to do per vehicle plus shipping you could end up spending $200 on these. I suppose you could use as many as 18 per vehicle!!! My guess is that the 930 scene in the USA must have figured out how to make these available for $2 each someplace in California.... I just didn't notice where. I imagine that you could be more sure of the grade of metal and the hardeneing with Porsche part, however.

If you are thinking of using 100mm 944 CV joints, my advice is not to do this even though it is tempting because we have proven time and again that the 100mm size just isn't strong enough. I'll probably double post this into at least one other 930 thread on samba just to make it easeir to find since neither of the two key numbers I have just given you are easy to come up with or find. In fact, I'd like to know who else already came up with these so we can add them to the honor role.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Last edited by derekdrew on Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:36 am; edited 2 times in total
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SyncroGhia
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

derekdrew wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There is this thing -- sometimes called a "spacer plate" but goes by other names -- that makes it easier to install and uninstall cv joint bolts that often came on the older 100mm CV joints on Vanagon. These spacer plates also help distribute the load when you are using a cv joint boot that has integral metal that covers the bolt holes since this metal is thin. Porsche is adament about using these spacer plates when using anything that covers the CV joint, such as these types of boots. In other cases, the spacer plates are very handy when doing 930 installations in Vanagons because they provide flexibility in the length of the bolts that may be used, merely by acting as a spacer. Another use for them is simply to make the installation and de-installation easier for a reason that escapes me at the moment, but it can be freaky with the bolts falling out and getting grease on them during this procedure, as I recall.

The part number of the spacer plate in Germany is 251 501 357, but this part is not carried in the USA, and it may also be out at VW in Germany. My guess is that Classic Parts in Germany may have some left through. I was able to find out the Porshce part number for these and was able to verify that the Porsche ones are for 108mm joints (930 size) and are not for the earlier 100mm size. The part number of the Porsche part is 911 332 191 00 and you can order it from Auto Atlanta and from other places. The google search query would then be exactly this:

("911 332 191 00" OR "91133219100")

Note the use of the parenthesis and that the OR expression must be capitalized or its boolean function is disabled. Its most important to put the quotes around expressions with spaces in them, but in practice, whether your search phrases have space in them or not, all your google seearches that include numbers should have quotes around the number or else google isn't sure whether to take you seriously.

It threw me for a loup that if you look at the 2nd expression (without spaces) 91133219100 the part number ends in "100" and so I was afraid that is was going to be for 100mm joints instead of 108mm, but it turned out to be for 108mm.

I think these should be regarded as optional unless there is a CV joint boot flange with thin metal between the bolt and the CV joint, or unless you happen to want a spacer of that size with the bolt you chose. Three for each joint means $30 per joint. If you have six joints to do per vehicle plus shipping you could end up spending $100 on these. My guess is that the 930 scene in the USA must have figured out how to make these available for $2 each someplace in California.... I just didn't notice where. I imagine that you could be more sure of the grade of metal and the hardeneing with Porsche part, however.

If you are thinking of using 100mm 944 CV joints, my advice is not to do this even though it is tempting because we have proven time and again that the 100mm size just isn't strong enough. I'll probably double post this into at least one other 930 thread on samba just to make it easeir to find since neither of the two key numbers I have just given you are easy to come up with or find. In fact, I'd like to know who else already came up with these so we can add them to the honor role.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Great info as always Derek.

There has been talk about 944 CV joints being weaker than standard 98/100mm CV joints for a while but I've never had one apart to compare the sizes etc. I use them on the inner end of Limey's Syncro 16 (with diff-lock) driveshafts and haven't had a problem with them but I expect that the VC ensures that they never see the same amount of stress that the rear CVs do.

I think that the biggest concern with using the smaller CV joints at the back is that when they do break, they break suddenly and cause dangerous and unpredictable conditions to occur which can mean the loss of control of your vehicle.

We've all seen the photo of a T3 Syncro on it's side due to a snapped drive-shaft or broken CV joint.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I know of several people within the UK who regularly snap driveshafts and kill CV joints (standard and 944) when off-roading.

I don't know anyone who has broken a CV joint or snapped a driveshaft when using 108mm CV joints and the associated thicker driveshafts, more than that I don't know of anyone who has snapped differential shaft (apart from you Derek!), or killed the spider gears inside the gearbox at all.

I've done so crazy things with Limey and the gearbox damage that it's sustained has never been diff or driveshaft related. It's always been internal to the gearbox rather than the differential. These weaknesses are apparent whether you use 98/100mm or 108mm setups and therefore cannot be attributed to whether you have one or the other.

In fact, I've never suffered a gearbox failure while off-roading. It's always been on the road.

----------------------------------------------------------

While we're talking about 108mm CV joints and associated hardware, can you recommend any aftermarket CV boots and flanges that will cope with the more extreme angles that I'm running?

The standard (OE and aftermarket) CV boots just can't take the angle and last between a week and a month before splitting.

Thanks.

MG
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

944 CVs on wbx powered vans are ideal.
This is a CV quality thing.
Even with some of the Lobros are being delivered now, I have to send some back as they have flaws and will not hold up, my opinion.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh...... after thinking about it..... I stand corrected..... clarified.... or whatever you want to call it.... I think 944s at the front inner location and mediated by a VC might be a great idea. I did do a lot of "plunge" tests on the front axles, and there is virtually no plunge needed there because of the way the front suspension works. So the plunge advantage of a 930 over a 944 would be wasted. So I guess I would say I cannot see anything wrong with the 944s at the front inner location, and even with extra drop somebody might build into the front, they probably would be a great choice. If somebody had a 16" vehicle with axles designed for front outer 98mm joints, I imagine that switching from 100mm VW joints to 944 joints might add strength during high-angle operation but I could be wrong. I never heard of a catastropic failure of a front inner 100mm joint now that you mention it. If you took the VC out and were locked and driving around on dry rock then I suppose you could have a front axle take the whole load of a vehicle, but it would have to be a very special case of driving to have three wheels without traction and only one front wheel pulling so that doesn't sound likely.
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SyncroGhia
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another idea is 100mm to 108mm adapters...

Follow the post.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=582346

MG
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

930s in the rear & 944 front syncro inners is a slick combo.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the info Derek.
I'll kick in an box gold stars if you know if the BMW, MBZ, Ferarri, Ford, Vauxhall or Opel also use the same part with these CVs or is it just Porsche?

derekdrew wrote:
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Someone with the means should have a thousand of these stamped out and sell them in the classifieds Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:14 pm    Post subject: 930 CV Boots Reply with quote

"While we're talking about 108mm CV joints and associated hardware, can you recommend any aftermarket CV boots and flanges that will cope with the more extreme angles that I'm running?

The standard (OE and aftermarket) CV boots just can't take the angle and last between a week and a month before splitting."

I use these and they hold up well....also clear the lip on the trailing arm:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/190720411175?lpid=82
This is the boot I use on the transaxle end:
http://www.mckenzies.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=cvaxleboots
Considering the angles and what I ask of them, they are pretty durable.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also looking for a cheap alternative for this as I have the same issue but with 4 Syncros running 108mm CV joints at the back and one running them on the front inners means a lot of CV boots!

MG
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derekdrew
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another option for rear inner boots is the "bates boot" new style.

=======================================

From a list email I sent out a month or two ago:

I think I tried a new style "bates boot" on one side and the 930 "small boots" on the outside.

You can also try to cross reference off these numbers:

-- VW: 443 498 201B

-- Meistersatz 103 2147, 02306260, 1158 Boot Kit 108mm Rear Inner And Outer

-- Lobro 300516, also says 6153157500007 and also says 4 019064 105114 Boot Kit 108mm Rear Inner And Outer

I don't think you should be limited to those OEM cross references though.

I cannot remember why I chose aftermarket boots instead of OEM boots and I don't see what I chose listed in my computer, which is criminal.

I might have chosen something like this for the outside: http://www.mooreparts.com/8779-AC501105KIT*/

If you choose a smaller boot for the rear outer, you can run a little more "droop" without having the boot hit inside the trailing arm, I think is the logic.

At the time, the Bates boots were well regarded.

I used this vendor, which was well recommended and knowledgeable: http://www.racereadyproducts.com/cv-boots/bates-boots/
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