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SyncroGhia
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Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2458
Location: Highnam, UK
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 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:09 am Post subject: |
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Karl,
Sure I don't go a bomb on the MTDi pumps due mostly to the fact that I've no idea of how to build one (sure I could start getting into them and learn) and that leaves me in the hands of whoever built it when it goes wrong. I'm not saying that it would go wrong quickly but everything wears and needs service work etc. How do you get around advancing and retarding the timing depending on temp and load as the electronics do? I presume (could be wrong) that these pumps are setup in a similar way to the TD pumps so they'll be more noisey at tickover in order to get the power further up the rev range?
I don't see how anyone can suggest that their MTDi pump is as good as a factory system when all the manufacturers spend hundreds of thousands and hours and hours on testing and you and I simply don't have the facilities for this.
Do you have any dyno graphs of your engine or others with MTDi pumps which you've built? I'd be interested to see where the power is in relation to TDis. How do you control a Variable Vane turbo if there's no ECU?
I'm not trying to start up an arguement but you're one of the first people who looks to have enough knowledge about MTDi pumps to be able to answer some of the q's I have about them.
The gearing problem still remains with any TDi engine... unless you're going to tell me it revs like a petrol engine and still returns 30mpg in a T3?
I've looked into the Subaru TDi and yes we've had them long enough for them to start appearing as parts. A friend of mine was offered a Subaru TDi engine, gearbox, loom and ECU (I'm presuming just the engine ECU) only a couple of weeks ago for £3,000. I told him he was wise to leave it alone due to Can-bus. I'm into using factory stuff, that's obvious, but getting around Can-bus systems is beyond me (for the moment) when I don't have the computer systems to plug into them and an electronics degree to work out how to get it to run without running the rest of the cars electronic systems.
This is good info... keep it coming 
MG
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westyventures
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Joined: December 29, 2004
Posts: 2306
Location: Oregon Outback
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| SyncroGhia wrote: |
Karl,
Sure I don't go a bomb on the MTDi pumps due mostly to the fact that I've no idea of how to build one (sure I could start getting into them and learn) and that leaves me in the hands of whoever built it when it goes wrong. I'm not saying that it would go wrong quickly but everything wears and needs service work etc. How do you get around advancing and retarding the timing depending on temp and load as the electronics do? I presume (could be wrong) that these pumps are setup in a similar way to the TD pumps so they'll be more noisey at tickover in order to get the power further up the rev range?
I don't see how anyone can suggest that their MTDi pump is as good as a factory system when all the manufacturers spend hundreds of thousands and hours and hours on testing and you and I simply don't have the facilities for this.
Do you have any dyno graphs of your engine or others with MTDi pumps which you've built? I'd be interested to see where the power is in relation to TDis. How do you control a Variable Vane turbo if there's no ECU?
I'm not trying to start up an arguement but you're one of the first people who looks to have enough knowledge about MTDi pumps to be able to answer some of the q's I have about them.
The gearing problem still remains with any TDi engine... unless you're going to tell me it revs like a petrol engine and still returns 30mpg in a T3?
MG |
Mike, what I was trying to say is that there isn't anything inside these pumps that is a special part - the only non-Bosch part is a stiffer throttle/governor spring. Still as easy (or more) to repair or rebuild as compared to an electronic pump. Regarding timing: as I previously mentioned, the electronic pump uses the very same spring-loaded advance piston design - the only difference is the M pump runs slightly less internal pressure to enable a very linear advance curve, the E pump a little more internal pressure which causes it to actually have more advance than it needs, so the pressure behind the advance piston is bled off more or less as needed to keep the timing where the computer dictates. Yes, the M pump can have a slight bit more diesel sound at idle in some cases, but that depends on the power level - more fuel usually means more 'knock' - E-TDI's also exhibit a tad more noise with aggressive tuning. I just had a customer in Washington report that his mTDI Syncro passed the state emissions at 1/4 of the allowable level. That's pretty darn good. Now, the latest FULLY electronic common-rail system - that is far and beyond what these older VE-pump systems are capable of, and run super-clean, in fact meet the same requirements as any gas engine. I plan to build a van using one of these CR engine sometime in the near future, perhaps my upcoming Gipsy Syncro project? 
One reason the 'factory' didn't stay with mechanical systems is that the electronics are in fact better at controlling emissions at extremes, like altitude and differing driving styles. I purchased a dyno this year but until I move the shop I have no room to set it up. I fully intend to prove the power is there and map it. VNT control, no problem - my current build project will be using a VNT20 along with PD150 intake and a few other interesting bits, looking toward 180-200 hp and 300 ft/lbs. A lot of tuners have found the computer does a lousy job in controlling the linkage-activated VNT's, so have been leaning towards more mechanical control as well.
In regards to revs, the TDI pulls well from 1500 to 4000 in mechanical form when set up right. That covers everything from rock crawling to 85 mph. I use my personal van as a test rig for every pump I build; the current pump I am testing is achieving a solid 30 mpg, even with the big injectors and me pushing every hill 'to see what it will do'. This one is going to Chile, hence the extended test period. |
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SyncroGhia
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Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2458
Location: Highnam, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Karl,
This sounds good and I'll be interested to see the figures once you get the dyno up and running.
I remember looking at the late AAZ engines with them using a double relay size ECU which retarded and advanced the timing when I installed the engine in my Bluestar. I rigged it all up with the sensors etc and found that although it was quieter at tickover, I'd lost power/torque so I removed it and ran it without. I'm guessing that this kind of power/torque can be gained in a similar way on MTDi pumps from TDis?
On this particular project, TDi isn't going to work for me but I do have a spare set of 4.57 syncro gearboxes and I'm very tempted to build an everyday usable Syncro 14 which is capable of 40mpg. I thought the only way to achieve this would be with a PD or Common Rail TDi but maybe you have some ideas for the AFN or AHU which might get there?
Going back to Subaru and Audi engines...
Having realised that the SA bellhousing is atleast 15mm longer than the RJES bellhousing and that with the inlet to the engine being so close to the bulkhead that I'm more likely to have to move the engine backwards rather than forwards.
Also, the RJES bellhousing allows more clearance between the gearbox and fuel tank than any other bellhousing when using the Turbo Suubaru clutch setup. Put this up with the smaller startermotors which Subarus use, there is potential for moving the gearbox forwards in the shell by up to an inch.
I spoke to Richard again earlier (he must be getting really fed up with these phonecalls  but he's very happy to help out) and he went out and measured the clearance from the crank pulley on the RJES setup to the centre of the rear cross member... 195mm!! wow... also looking at this photo of a Subaru motor... I could machine down the crank pulley as I won't be using the outer section.
I'll also be looking into turning the inlet manifold around to give more clearance to the bulkhead/fuel tank. I'll have to look into whether this would put the inlet too close to the back of the van.
MG
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westyventures
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Joined: December 29, 2004
Posts: 2306
Location: Oregon Outback
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| SyncroGhia wrote: |
I remember looking at the late AAZ engines with them using a double relay size ECU which retarded and advanced the timing when I installed the engine in my Bluestar. I rigged it all up with the sensors etc and found that although it was quieter at tickover, I'd lost power/torque so I removed it and ran it without. I'm guessing that this kind of power/torque can be gained in a similar way on MTDi pumps from TDis?
On this particular project, TDi isn't going to work for me but I do have a spare set of 4.57 syncro gearboxes and I'm very tempted to build an everyday usable Syncro 14 which is capable of 40mpg. I thought the only way to achieve this would be with a PD or Common Rail TDi but maybe you have some ideas for the AFN or AHU which might get there?
Going back to Subaru and Audi engines...
Having realised that the SA bell housing is at least 15mm longer than the RJES bell housing and that with the inlet to the engine being so close to the bulkhead that I'm more likely to have to move the engine backwards rather than forwards.
Also, the RJES bell housing allows more clearance between the gearbox and fuel tank than any other bell housing when using the Turbo Subaru clutch setup. Put this up with the smaller starter motors which Subarus use, there is potential for moving the gearbox forwards in the shell by up to an inch.
MG |
Yes, the late AAZ used the same timing solenoid as the VE-pump TDI. That model was one of the very few TD pumps that had this. The pumps I use to build mTDI pumps don't, as most.
You'd likely have a better chance seeing 40 mpg (UK?) with the common rail. A relatively stock AHU or ALH driven carefully might get close too.
Moving the Syncro trans forward is impossible without cutting the crossmember and moving it. |
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SyncroGhia
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Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2458
Location: Highnam, UK
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| westyventures wrote: |
You'd likely have a better chance seeing 40 mpg (UK?) with the common rail. A relatively stock AHU or ALH driven carefully might get close too.
Moving the Syncro trans forward is impossible without cutting the crossmember and moving it. |
Hmmm, using anything VW/Audi with Common rail is pretty much out of the window isn't it? due to crossing over to Can Bus at the same time... atleast I think this is what they did...
Good point about the cross member, with the amount of cutting things about, chopping the cross member around isn't a problem. I'm going to stop short of lowering the whole gearbox/engine, rear suspension etc like Benrd Jaeger.
MG
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syncrogreg
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Joined: November 08, 2009
Posts: 742
Location: USA (Nashville TN)
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: 2010 tdi Common rail Management |
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Hi MG,
I'm working on swaping a 2.0 tdi cr into my syncro. I have a nice solution to manage the engine.
I'm still working on it to make plug and play kits that will fit the 2.0tdi CR VAG engines and sell it to the people that want to swap thoses engines. By using this kit you d'ont have to worry about DPF, IMMO, EGR...
Let me know if you want more infos.
Greg
| SyncroGhia wrote: |
| westyventures wrote: |
You'd likely have a better chance seeing 40 mpg (UK?) with the common rail. A relatively stock AHU or ALH driven carefully might get close too.
Moving the Syncro trans forward is impossible without cutting the crossmember and moving it. |
Hmmm, using anything VW/Audi with Common rail is pretty much out of the window isn't it? due to crossing over to Can Bus at the same time... atleast I think this is what they did...
Good point about the cross member, with the amount of cutting things about, chopping the cross member around isn't a problem. I'm going to stop short of lowering the whole gearbox/engine, rear suspension etc like Benrd Jaeger.
MG |
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syncrogreg
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Joined: November 08, 2009
Posts: 742
Location: USA (Nashville TN)
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:26 am Post subject: |
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I forgot a big point.
This custom ecu can be waterproof. the company that make them are also working on jetskis and boat management.
Greg |
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beelzibus
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Joined: March 01, 2005
Posts: 300
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| SyncroGhia wrote: |
Karl,
... also looking at this photo of a Subaru motor... I could machine down the crank pulley as I won't be using the outer section.
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I think I'm correct in saying that the outer part of the pulley is Alternator and PAS the inner is AC. |
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syncrogreg
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Joined: November 08, 2009
Posts: 742
Location: USA (Nashville TN)
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yes the inner puley is not used unless you have A/C and the outer puley is unfortunately the alternator and steering. I checked on mine and there is no way to make it using the inner one.
Greg
| beelzibus wrote: |
| SyncroGhia wrote: |
Karl,
... also looking at this photo of a Subaru motor... I could machine down the crank pulley as I won't be using the outer section.
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I think I'm correct in saying that the outer part of the pulley is Alternator and PAS the inner is AC. |
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SyncroGhia
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2458
Location: Highnam, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| syncrogreg wrote: |
Yes the inner puley is not used unless you have A/C and the outer puley is unfortunately the alternator and steering. I checked on mine and there is no way to make it using the inner one.
Greg
| beelzibus wrote: |
| SyncroGhia wrote: |
Karl,
... also looking at this photo of a Subaru motor... I could machine down the crank pulley as I won't be using the outer section.
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I think I'm correct in saying that the outer part of the pulley is Alternator and PAS the inner is AC. |
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Hmmm, ok. Will have to look into this. I'm already looking at turning the inlet manifold around and that would necessitate moving the alternator so I could possibly use the inner pulley by just moving the alternator further in?
MG
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syncrogreg
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Joined: November 08, 2009
Posts: 742
Location: USA (Nashville TN)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| SyncroGhia wrote: |
A friend of mine was offered a Subaru TDi engine, gearbox, loom and ECU (I'm presuming just the engine ECU) only a couple of weeks ago for £3,000
MG |
Hi,
Is this subaru diesel engine still availlable ?
Let me know with a personal message please
Thanks
Greg |
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hellenic vanagon
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Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:38 am Post subject: |
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Running for 5 years an AUDI 2.8 l, V6 (174 HP), withouy problems, I have learned my lesson: this power is not enough for the SYNCRO!
So I am going a new project SYNCRO & BITURBO V6 & MTM 4th stage= 420 bhp! (2.7 l AUDI S4),(Still under construction).
This is the beast:
On the car:
[b]Underneath & left intercooler
Left side exhaust & catalyst & fuel pump:
[b](Between others), differential's valvoline radiator
Right side exhaust:
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SyncroGhia
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Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2458
Location: Highnam, UK
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:03 am Post subject: |
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That sounds like a laugh..
I would say though that at the minimum you'll need to rebuild your transmission with some extra oiling to help the bearings survive and I would look into possibly limiting the amount of power when in G and Reverse.. maybe a setup with multi program setup and microswitches on the shifter?
From experience, I can say that with over 250ftlbs, G and Reverse won't last long if you use full power. The general rule which is agreed from all Syncro transmission rebuilders is not to use reverse on pull power at all and if you have to pull anything... do it in G gear.
Something else that I've realised after many months of testing, is that with my setup, using an oil cooler which fits into the comfines of the duct at the bottom of the rear vent isn't enough to keep the oil cool at full pelt... even with a vent scoop and fan!!
Keep us updated with the project.
MG
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hellenic vanagon
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Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| SyncroGhia wrote: |
That sounds like a laugh..
MG |
Hoping that we can communicate with mutual laughter, (when necessary), have to say:
1)For transmission:
a)The 3rd and 4th gears are changed to lower the revs.
b)A valvoline radiator with an extra pump an electric automatic thermoswitch and an on board thermometer are, for the moment, my hopes for a healthy transmission. I know it is not enough for 400 + hp! Will see...
2)Some more fotos:
LEFT SIDE EXHAUST
THE HEAT PROTECTED FUEL TANK (5 FOILS OF INSULATION MATERIAL)
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SyncroGhia
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Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2458
Location: Highnam, UK
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:46 am Post subject: |
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Yes laughing together
I'm glad you've already looked into helping the gearbox cope with the extra power and torque.
I've found that 1st to 4th don't have a problem other than the pinion and mainshaft bearings not lasting as long as normal.
I have also found that the VC (Viscous Coupling) cannot cope with this much torque when offroading and have now fitted a solid shaft instead. I have had the front wheels sitting still and the rear wheels turning (with rear difflock engaged) a couple of times when I've been trying to get up something steep or trying to pull someone out. This has always been on hard ground.. it isn't a problem on loose ground or mud. My VC was reconditioned about 40,000 miles ago.
MG
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hellenic vanagon
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Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| SyncroGhia wrote: |
Yes laughing together
I'm glad you've already looked into helping the gearbox cope with the extra power and torque.
I've found that 1st to 4th don't have a problem other than the pinion and mainshaft bearings not lasting as long as normal.
I have also found that the VC (Viscous Coupling) cannot cope with this much torque when offroading and have now fitted a solid shaft instead. I have had the front wheels sitting still and the rear wheels turning (with rear difflock engaged) a couple of times when I've been trying to get up something steep or trying to pull someone out. This has always been on hard ground.. it isn't a problem on loose ground or mud. My VC was reconditioned about 40,000 miles ago.
MG |
1)About gearbox:
a)Mr. Raptopoulos, the champion of 4x4 races in Greece for the year 1993 with a Syncro powered by PORSCHE 350 bhp engine, told me that, under rallye conditions, there is a tendency for broken 1st gear.
b)Driving for 5 years with a V6 AUDI 174 bhp engine, there was no problem at all.
c)In case of problem with the new engine, although I am going to drive very conservatively, there are two solutions: reinforce the gearbox or put a PORSCHE one.
2)About VC:
It saved my life twice up to now, counting from 1993 the year bought the car, with its traction in very difficult cirmcunstances ON the road, and I believe that we must not disengage it for any reason!
I have to answer about the bellhousing and intercoolers and flywheel.
Please give me some more time because it is time for launch with my family! I will be back asap!
Last edited by hellenic vanagon on Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hellenic vanagon
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Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:22 am Post subject: |
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So back again!
For bellhousing:
It is the stock.
Question:
What are the characteristics of the Southafrican?
For intercoolers:
They are aluminum MTM modified to fit.
For flywheel:
A new, (stock), set is fitted. I check its power with 174 hp engine making on off starts with maximum engine revs and it seems decent enough, (having a minor sliping, which is good for gearbox protection). I hope that it will be o.k..
Last edited by hellenic vanagon on Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:56 am; edited 2 times in total |
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SyncroGhia
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Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2458
Location: Highnam, UK
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:43 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
The South African bellhousing is this...
It allows you to bolt up an Audi 5 Cylinder, V6 and V8 engine to the stock gearbox. Obviously you can't use the brace which sits of the top due to the fuel tank. These came on standard South African VW Transporters fitted with 2.3, 2.5 and 2.6 petrol engines from 1995-2003.
You might want to look at chargecoolers? I think it could be hard to get airflow to the intercoolers in the back.
If you read my Limey, thread I've been going through similar things with my 2.5TDi install.
MG
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SyncroGhia
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Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2458
Location: Highnam, UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:00 am Post subject: |
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I haven't posted on this for a while as I've been busy with work but Vanfest has just been (great show!) and I was lucky to find a Whitestar with an Audi V6 2.8 AAH on show and took a few photos. I also managed to get back later on and take a tape measure with me to get some real measurements.
I must admit, I'd never thought of using the original engine mount before.. this is an easy way and looks good. I'd probably end up using 2 of them so I had something at the back to connect the stock syncro bashbars to.
He's used the South African Bellhousing so I know that the measurements are accurate for my application.
I'm always suprised by how much room there is between the back of the engine and the rear cross member.
The sump and oil filter are going to be in harms way so a larger bash plate will have to be fitted to protect them well.
MG
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beelzibus
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Joined: March 01, 2005
Posts: 300
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Beware Mike, those sumps are very weak, I've cracked mine twice in my A6 Quattro, it's such a heavy and relatively low car that it doesn't take much of a bump for it to ground. In short, protect it well. |
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