Lowering a 411/ 412

[sharkskinman]

me and ray have talking and here is the easy small lowering

rear..regular or econoline shocks
metal plates bolted or welded to the bottom shock mount to extend it downward 1-2"s
(mount will be closer to ground)

the front
audi cartridges (ray has to give me the part #)
(rays) 6" rod under cartridge and a 4" extension on the top of the rod)


....for a bit more lowering +1-2"s
an aluminum rod the diameter of the INSIDE of the strut housing
with a bored hole Slightly bigger than strut rod

(mine will be)
BOTTOM--a 4" piece of rod UNDER the cartridge and a 2" piece (with hole) above cartridge (under cap)
with rod going thru(will move cartridge Down IN the housing 2 more inches

on the top a 4" rod (like a shifter extension) (same as ray)
on the top to reach the top of the strut assembly

with JUSt changeing to audi cartridges you get a 1" drop (about)

with the 4" on the bottom and the 2" at the top
you gain another 2"s drop for a total of 3" drop in the front

coupled with the 1-2"s you move the strut in the rear down
and i think that will be Level and lower than you might think
_________________
74 Mexi Swamp Thing. 70 square volksrod (Swamp Rat)..65 C10

[Mike Fisher]

Talk to vwfye about how he lowered the front of his 412 wagon about 4".
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

[raygreenwood]

Just be careful. The front springs of the 411/412 are very large/long. They are also quite progressive. The soft road following portion is at the top. I know that as long as you have strut valving to handle the rebound (the audi/golf struts are suerb for this) you can safely compress the spring (that I know of) about 2" by moving the audi cartrdige up or down in the strut body with spacers.
After that, you start increasing the preload on the spring as well as losing the fine ride quality adjustment created by the first few inches of the spring.
This is why cutting the springs at the top is a no-no...and because it dexreases the total spring preload...and would remove the largest load carrying section of the springs....its also a no-no cutting at the bottom.

Its also worth it to bear in mind that lowering even an inch in the front end lowers the vehicle quite a bit more than you think.

Because the nose struts are at virtually full extension when the trunk is empty.....it not onlt lifts the front end up high...it pivots the rear of the body around the rear axle. This drives the rear downward at the bumper and lower fender edge behind the rear wheel. This makes the front end appear even higher.

Add to that...the fact that with age all 411/412 tend to drop about 1/2" or more in the rear (which does not change its handling or load capacity).....this all coincides to make the front end look REALLY high.

Lowering right at an inch will make the car dead level as measured at the seam on teh rocker panels right behind each wheel.The visual effect is that it appears that you lowered the car in the front by a hair over two inches.

Also teh Audi strut adapter stub has very little room to move for lowering further without weakening the internal thread that screws onto the audi strut.

Since the audi cartridge also has a shorter body and wil have about a 6" support pin/rod underneath it in the strut body to make the top of the cartridge flush with the top of the strut body centering ring.....its really easy to make the support pin/rod shorter and put what you subtracted....on top of the strut cartridge flush with the strut cap.
This lowers the strut cartridge in the strut body....compressing the spring further....and lowering the whole front end.

Be carful...do not over lower. (a) its not necessary. Even at stock height with the nose lowered level...this car is low. (b) add low profile tires.....206/60-15's....and you drop most of another inch. This leaves about 5.5" between the rear cross member and the pavement.
(c) as the tire profiles get lower and the main strut spring gets compressed making the font end stiffer....when it gets too tight....it transfers the load on quick bumps....to the already rather weak spring inside of the ball joints....causing them to "clack"...and beating the shit out of them. Ray

[vwfye]

don't do this! it might not be low enough

_________________
64 No'back Speedster "Pearl"
1980s Sand Dragster "The Plunger"
LME "Little Giant Killer 3"

[raygreenwood]

Actually that looks pretty good. How does it drive. Are you looking to lower further? Ray

[vwfye]

ride quality did not change at all. handling improved, cross wind driving improved and MPG improved getting the air over the car instead of under.

and yes, it will go lower... but that will be with tire choice for now.
_________________
64 No'back Speedster "Pearl"
1980s Sand Dragster "The Plunger"
LME "Little Giant Killer 3"

[raygreenwood]

Which method did you use?...I should remember but I'm losing my brain.
yes...its amazing how just setting the front end level (if nothing else is done)...improves wind handling and wander. Ray

[vwfye]

cut the springs in front 2 full coils. 12k miles on the cut springs...
_________________
64 No'back Speedster "Pearl"
1980s Sand Dragster "The Plunger"
LME "Little Giant Killer 3"

[sharkskinman]

so just cute30 or OG springs
and regular strut cartridges?
detailed info on your set up?
_________________
74 Mexi Swamp Thing. 70 square volksrod (Swamp Rat)..65 C10

[raygreenwood]

I remember now.....DO NOT cut the springs. Been there and done that with both series springs and two different version each. 12k miles is not an indicator of what ends up happening in the long run....which is quick wear and potential damage.
You go over things like speed bumps a bit too quick and the OG strut cartridges go to full length extension . Unless you were perfect at trimming the springs to length...the springs unseat on full rebound. It commonly damages the lower spring seat and sometimes the strut rod.

Also with a big chunk of the softer load control area now missing....the compression rate velocity for the stock style strut is now too fast. you end up with short life on the cartridges....and even shprter life on the strut bushings. The late assymetrical bushinsg....less of an issue but still an issue. Early symmetrical bushings....big issue.

It also greatly lowers the front trunk load capacity.
As you noted...no change to the ride. You were lucky and obviosuly don't carry too much in your trunk. That being said....the original ride can be greatly improved. It wasn't fabulous to begin with. Ray

[naterally]

i found these =D

http://www.kmwperformance.com/product/UA-02-ST-SB-14

air bags that fit into struts or coil over shocks!

your welcome folks
_________________
1974 412 Wagon with type 1 conversion. Tell me it wont work now :/

[vwfye]

[sharkskinman]

naterally...your in Vegas
what do you drive
are you part of the scene or new to the area

[raygreenwood]

Look at that part and think about it. You will not be using any part of your existing strut with that air bag....without hefty fabrication.

In general...air bag usage replaces both spring and damper. They also are rarely able to do both simultaneously....and do it well.
And you still need a guide tube through the center somewhere in place of the original strut rod.
Unlike an A-arm vehicle....the struts on Mcpherson type suspension are a major point of guidance and rigidity for the suspension.
If all you are looking for is nose dragging levels of lowering....cool! go for it.

If you want the car to drive, handle and be reliable....I don't see bags as bing thesolution. Ray

[ubercrap]

I had the impression that thing was like a "sleeve" that fits in place of the spring over the strut?
_________________
'74 412 wagon
(2) '74 412 2dr. sedan
'73 412 2dr. sedan

[sharkskinman]

[raygreenwood]

The air bag is clamped between the lower spring perch and the upper springt plate. The problem is ....without the center rod....what keeps side to side flex from happening?......nothing!.

The stock strut cartridge and even the Audi cartridge already have some of this problem and it is noticable in handling as you make other improvements that stiffen the suspension.

You can feel this problem by jacking up one side of the front end...PLEASE use jack stands for this operation.....because you are going to reach two to three fingers through the spring. Lay one finger across the narrow gap between the upper strut body cap and the strut cartridge rod. You want that finger touching both simultaneously.

Now....grab the wheel at 12:00 with your other hand....shake it around. You will feel movement between the strut rod and the outer strut body.
This is the tail end of the cartridge fishtailing inside of the strut housing.
Its worse when you have the weight of the car on it.

You can get rid of this by wrapping the lower strut body with a strip of car or bicycle inner tube down close to the bottom. Use some weatherstrip adhesive to adhere it. Make it enough wraps that it is a close fit. This is a pretty good handling improvement.

I could easily cast urethane rings for this.

Without the strut rod a "bag" will have a lot of this problem. Its not like a bug that still has its upper and lower arms to guide the suspension. Ray

[Mike Fisher]

vwfye looks like he could cut 1 more round off his coils and still clear his tires? He would then have to lower the back a notch also? The handling could only get better, but the ground clearance can only get worse! I wouldn't go under 3" ground clearance.
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

[raygreenwood]

Regardless of lowering (which does lower the center of gravity and aid handling).....past a certain point of lowering...handling does not much improve with the 412. About 2" is it. It changes the aerodynamics about all they can be. There is also some evidence that with the flat bottom on these vehciles that getting too low may actually cause lifting at high speeds.

Lowering with these cars is also not THE top handling improvment. In order they are like this:

(1) Better shock to spring valving ratio
(2) Lower profile wider tires
(3) Better bushing material universally
(4) lowering
(5) increased sway control in the rear
(6) stability/anti-vibration detailing (better strut mounts, outer links, strut cartridge fishtailing, rebuilt centerlink, bronze idler bushing)

One of the quickest ways to make the handling worse is to cut springs and remove too much of the ride control section of the springs. This not only causes oscillations and vibrations but it can damage alot of parts.
So yes...it may lower it furether (which may or may not help handling)....but if you lose to much of teh spring it can very quickly make it worse.
This is not saying that you can't cut springs. Just that there is a limit and its nearly impossible to say where the line is until you cross it. Ray

[vwfye]

Ray, I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you. I'm sure you won't feel that way, but my car has improved with the cut springs. It rides more consistant, it handles better, MPG has improved & appearance has improved (subjective).

I know there are other, better ways to lower the car, but for me, the method I have chosen has worked well. I do not overload the trunk, that's not what this car is for at this place in it's life. I use this car to haul the family around when the group wants to cruise/car show.

As to that specific air spring, it is used WITH a strut cartridge.
_________________
64 No'back Speedster "Pearl"
1980s Sand Dragster "The Plunger"
LME "Little Giant Killer 3"