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Lowering a 411/ 412
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill K. wrote:
Note that strut dimensions on the bench don't mean much unless the same spring is used in the comparison. Ride height should be controlled by the length and spring rate of the spring. The BMW E30 spring is different in length and spring rate compared to the 411/412. The BMW E30 M3 spring is shorter than the E30 spring, but the same spring rate. BMW and 411 spring are linear rate springs. 412 are progressive rate springs.

The BMW part numbering is confusing because some E30's came with "sports suspension" which have the M3 springs (or an equivalent). There is Euro and US also... The difference is 6 coils/green stripe for M3 and 7 coils/blue stripe for standard suspension.

The Mazda strut bearing is for a 626.

In a week or so, I'll have a kit posted in the classifieds for the modified spring plate with Mazda bearing, spacers to fit the Audi 4000 insert, M3 springs, etc.



Yes...well put. The spring in its captured state (assembled between top plate and bottom perch...and then loaded with vehicle weight) sets the ride height. The only time comparison on the bench shows something improtant is when the same spring is being compared and only when you are compressing the ride control area (not the load area).

Both 411 and 412 had progressive springs. Only the earliest 411's had single rate springs. Ray
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sharkskinman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My M3 front springs that came from an 88 have a green stripe on them (stock springs have blue). No markings on the rear springs other than the PN which I don't have. But I'm not sure if the color stripe is the same on all years of the E30 M3. The 6 coils vs 7 coils on the front springs is pretty consistent from other pics I've seen.
good luck

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M3 left...Stock E30
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think this is the part number
(40 084 40 Coil Spring)
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74 Mexi Swamp Thing. 70 square volksrod (Swamp Rat)..65 C10

Me of Course wrote:
Extremity is relative to how far your willing to jump

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You ever try a pink golf ball, Wally? Why, the wind shear alone on a pink golf ball can take the head off a 90-pound midget at over 300 yards


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ubercrap
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: More details on my strut replacement/lowering Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
tsdfitz wrote:
The original VW strut cartridge was oil dampened and “unique” to put it mildly. It was close to a type 3 strut cartridge (that’s strut body type 3 not VW Type 3) The original has a body slightly over 16.50” long, with 7.80” of travel and well over 30” of total length. It appears to have been setup for a car much heavier than the 411 is in the front, but as Ray pointed out that’s due to the funky suspension setup.

The Audi 4000 Cartridge is a type 3 (like most VW strut cartridges), has a 14.25” body, 22.125” of total length and 7.375” of travel. It is dampened similarly to the 411 and firmer than the Super Beetle. Which is a type 3, has a 13.750” body, 22.125 total length and 7.875” of travel. The Dasher and several other VW’s of that era use basically the same carts as the Audi 4000.

The Nissan Maxima/AXXESS REAR Cartridge is a type 3 has a 16.50” body, 24.75” of length and 7.750” of travel. It is setup for the rear so it’s not as firmly dampened as the Audi cart, but combined with the BMW (Blue) spring it rides nicely IMHO.

I used the Nissan strut mount because the bearing sits 2” lower and gives me a total of about 2.5” of drop and also it is readily available and cheap, I did have to re-drill the strut housing . I also used the matching Monroe boots and bump stops. The strut cartridge is Monroe # 73226, the mount is 901948 and the boot kit is 63622. I spent less than 100.00 USD on each side.

I filled the strut housing with the specified amount of oil (specified by Monroe) installed the cartridge, forced down the sleeve/brace into the strut body and screwed the cap on. Then I slipped on the BMW spring, installed the stock VW top with rubber insulator, then slipped on the spacer, then the sleeve to fill the difference between the bearing and the strut rod and then the mount, bolted it all together and installed it as a unit. A very big vise and good spring compressors made this easier but it still was a pain and finding the right sleeve to fit in the bearing required a trip to a specialty electronic supply warehouse.

I know when you lower a front engine, strut suspended car, it can flop from understeer to oversteer unexpectedly during hard cornering (then you can find yourself upside down). I am sure that problem will only be worse in a rear engine car; so I was afraid to lower it much more than a few inches.




There is an error here. If the maxima bearing sits "lower"...meaning lower down outside of the trunk than the stock VW 411 bearing...then it effectively raises the front end....and thats what it looks like it did.

A bearing sitting lower...that would actually lower the car...would be one that sits further up inside of the trunk....allowing the strut rod to penetrate further into the trunk and thus the body to sit lower.

The problem with the original strut cartridges were in several areas:

(1) the rebound valving of the stock strut cartridge was too weak for the strength of the massive spring...balanced by the light weight of the front end. So going over a bump feels soft and the springs would only compress a modest amount.....but on rebound...those heavy springs out accelerated the valving. typically by about 15-20k miles the rebound valving was totally shot...making this even worse.

(2) The springs of most macpherson strut systems will ALWAYS keep the strut cartridge almost ...if not totally....extended. The type 4 strut had an abnormally long strut rod. The only way to compres is down to an acceptable height is to heavily load the trunk.
Or....get a strut with a shorter rod.....which is why I do not use the stock struts at all.

Also...a question: Are the struts you have gotten for this from the maxima...sealed cartridges...or are they bare strut mechanisms with no external tube that you keep submerged in oil....like the original 411/412 and superbeetle?

If they are the original type.....you are going to have problems with them because :
(a) you must have the exact oil that was designated for these struts...or there will be problems
(b) the shock absorber manufacturer cannot designate the oil volume. This is because they do not design the outer tube it goes within. VW did that. VW sets the volume (along with the strut manufacturer).
This is extremely important with this strut design. A few ounces too little and the lower circuit starves causing scoring and ring failure.
A few ounces too much and the upper circuit overpressurizes blowing either the upper seal or o-ring and usually both.
The loss of fluid from this happening is the death nell for these struts. They can tolerate no real imbalance because of loss or gain of fluid.

The fluid path within the factory struts is NOT the same as a sealed aftermarket replacement cartridge. It is actually quite complex. I have actually mapped this and have a diagram of it if you would like to see it.

What many do not understand is that the upper plug of the stock oil strut...is actually a metering block. It controls the rate of return of oil that is pressurized on rebound....to the surrouning resovoir of fluid in the outer strut tube.

The main valving stack and piston orifices control bypass of fluid on compression stroke to the upper chamber. On rebound....instead of fluid bypassing back through the piston (there is a specific amount that does).....in actuality the rebound bypass is shunted through the upper aluminum metering block back into the resorvoir...and is pulled into the lower chamber through and orifice plate in the very bottom of the inner strut tube.
In all there are two sets of valves and 3 sets of metering orfiices in these struts.

Marvelous design, exceedingly precise....by poorly valved for the load imposed...and they are simply too long. Ray


OK, I am back in the game here- retrieved my wagon from storage and back to work on the front suspension and steering. However, I think I left some parts in my other storage unit, so I don't have a few odds and ends from various struts I disassembled before. Anyway, I went out and bought some of the Nissan strut inserts. Ray, these are sealed units. Actually, all the struts I had disassembled until now had apparently been switched over to sealed type. I had another pair from a car that I had parted, so I started to disassemble these for a few parts and found they had the type you are describing (and the ones that were on tsdfitz'scar) that are just the inner insert sitting in oil w/o-ring seal at the top. Now, I believe that sealed units often are meant to sit in the strut body filled with oil for cooling purposes, which I think was what tsdfitz was describing. What I am trying to figure out is how tsdfitz made these work. I can't seem to find any of the centering ring things that fit around the top of the original replacement sealed type strut cartridges (cannot for the life of me figure out where they went). tsdfitz, did you remove that top collar thing with the o-ring seal and use that as a spacer on top of the Nissan strut like it sounds? Because the strut body is slightly shorter and needs a spacer in there somewhere. I didn't examine it very closely to see if it actually did come off-how does one get it off there if that is the case?
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ubercrap
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I figured it out! Struts getting close now...
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sharkskinman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so what about parts from a super beetle for the front
rubber and such
http://toplineparts.com/products/products.htm
http://toplineparts.com/products/frontendrebuild.htm
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cant we use some of these for our type 4s
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74 Mexi Swamp Thing. 70 square volksrod (Swamp Rat)..65 C10

Me of Course wrote:
Extremity is relative to how far your willing to jump

Ward Cleaver wrote:
You ever try a pink golf ball, Wally? Why, the wind shear alone on a pink golf ball can take the head off a 90-pound midget at over 300 yards


PS4 "NKOGNEATO"
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oasis
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked that same question a couple years or so ago. The answer is NO. They are too different to be effective or to be used at all.

(I couldn't find my question here via a search, so I am guessing I must have asked at Shop Talk Forums.)
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sharkskinman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dunno ?
isnt the front just an extended version of the super beetle
any one have a picture of a super beetle front end

wait
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/wolfsburg_new/front_axle/front_super_bug/front_super_beetle.cfm
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74 Mexi Swamp Thing. 70 square volksrod (Swamp Rat)..65 C10

Me of Course wrote:
Extremity is relative to how far your willing to jump

Ward Cleaver wrote:
You ever try a pink golf ball, Wally? Why, the wind shear alone on a pink golf ball can take the head off a 90-pound midget at over 300 yards


PS4 "NKOGNEATO"
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Lahti411
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the basic design is similar, but not the same. I'm not sure if there are any other parts shared with SB and type4 than idler arm bushing and steering damper bushing. Even the original idler arm bushing was defective and needs to replaced with bronze bushing (this is availabe in most VW shops). The tie rod ends are the same as used in type3. Only some minor parts like nuts and washers are shared with other period VW models.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, this is true. The only parts that go across from Superbeetle to 411/412 are the strut bushings and the idler arm bushing.

The idler arm bushing of the superbeetle is a 411 part # prefix. It came from the 411/412 to the superbeetle and was defective in design in both vehicles. The bronze replacement solved alot of problems in the superbeetle...and works perfectly in the 411/412.

The outer tie rod ends are also a type 3 but there are several type 1 tie rod ends that fit outer. Also, there are type 3 and 1's that fit inner. You do not have to have the 9* bent inner tie-rod ends. They put a little less strain on the tie-rods having them bent but it has never been an issue in hundreds of thousands of miles of driving to not have bent inner tie-rod ends.

Inner: 9* angled 311-415-818B
Outer: On early vehciles they were both left hand thread and were 311-415-811C.
There were some later vehicles (if memory serves) that used either one left hand thread inner or one left hand thread outer. Either way, the dealers generally list 3 total part #'s required for doing the tie-rod ends.
I will post the type 1 cross match part #'s tonight.

The center link is unique: 411-417-353C. The TRW part # it is usually found by is DS-858. I do not recommend buying a new centerlink. For the high cost...they still have the same defects.
You can rebuild these easily to 200% better than stock for about $30-40 in parts and some careful labor. Ray
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Bill K.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill K. wrote:
...In a week or so, I'll have a kit posted in the classifieds for the modified spring plate with Mazda bearing, spacers to fit the Audi 4000 insert, M3 springs, etc.


Kits and full strut assemblies now available in classifieds. '74 assembly and kit shown below with 1303 ('74-79) Super Beetle strut mount bearings.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


To install the 1303 strut mount in a '73 and earlier chassis, the strut tower is modified as shown below (three mounting holes drilled and lip around center hole removed). The 1303 strut brace was used as a template.
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Happy cornering,
Bill
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work! Ray
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Bill K.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ray. I combined your ideas of using the Audi insert and Mazda bearing with Wally's idea to use the M3 spring. With proper bump stop selection and a few custom parts, its a nice package which should help keep these cars on the road for years to come (looking and working better than stock) Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill K. wrote:
Thanks Ray. I combined your ideas of using the Audi insert and Mazda bearing with Wally's idea to use the M3 spring. With proper bump stop selection and a few custom parts, its a nice package which should help keep these cars on the road for years to come (looking and working better than stock) Cool



Zactly! That philosophy is what I have been trying to get across to alot of people in respect to these cars and even type 3's. At some point....it is not worth keeping everything NOS.....if doing so delivers less than acceptable performance....and carries with it the seeds of its own destruction.
Exact original suspension parts for type 4's.....are some of the rarest parts alive short of hebmueller parts. Also...simply replacing them with like parts...means that when they wear out you are again stuck with trying to find rare parts that are unobtanium.
Much better to find a new answer that is improved. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reviving this thread... well I it looks like my struts are on the way out as would be expected at this age they did not seem too bad at first after I figured out why the steering wheel was loose (bushing) but I have enough tell tale signs that occasionally happen to make me suspect them. I am curious about the Nissan Maxima strut cartridges, did any one get these to work? Are they bolt in sealed cartridges? I am not looking to lower the front end. I use the car for getting feed and the like so being able to carry a heavy load in the front is a plus. And I usually have a bag up front anyway. Also the simpler I can make this the better since time is not something I have a lot of.

Thanks
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man! You arecpushing my time line!
So..... I have everything, ready to assemble struts except ball joint boots....which are not necessary ......but I like to assemble mine with steering knuckles and joints so I can shelve them for a month as units while I undercoat before assembly.

So....th maxima struts I believe that someone on the STF may have done a pair.....but the valving has never been proven.....and thats critical. Plus....if they are the exact same length....you still have that nasty nose high thjng gojng on which is a major cross wind handling defect at highway speeds.

Bill K's mod works and is proven but is a lowering mod as well and requires new springs.

The audi strut mod is actually quite simple, works very well, has excellent valving....same cartridge Bill K uses. But....you will need to have two parts machined. Pretty simple.....I have the schematic in sketch and in CAD.

I also took about 500 pictures in layout of what is required. The boots.... I found a part # for at autozone. To use it uou need to modify the existing factory bump stop and steel bushing. You can use this mod ro get exact factory. ....nose high height with no added mods.....or you can drop up to 2".....1" is actually dead level and highly recomended.....simply by a combination of grinding the bump stop bushing and adding/subtracting a few shims/washers at the strut mount.

The Audi cartridges....KYB gr-2 (Excel-G).....are cheap for about $35 each. If you have a 74 using late strut bushings, new rubber inserts for them at Rockauto are $4 each. The bearint can be cleaned, regreased and reused....plus I have pics of a mod to tighten it up that takes 10 ninutes, a punch and a hammer.
The boots are $12 each.....maybe less at Rockauto. The rest is minor fabrication....and some drill work in a vise or on a drill press. You can do the work in about an afternoon or less if you, collect the parts first.

The adapter stubs typically will cost about $100-135 to have made at any machine shop....maybe less. Its easily a 200% handling upgrade. ....really.

The nose sits level, the car bump steers less, the factory rebound defect is gone, itw handles much much betters, flatter and body roll is greatly, dimenished......and now you have replaceable strut cartridges.....because these fit millions of audis and golfs.

I can put together a part # list in a day to shop with and e-mail the upgraded drawing. It will take abiut a, week to drop all of the photos in...in order with measurements and captions in a word document.

Ray
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reluctantartist
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, please do this. I would greatly appreciate it.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent, I will go this route with a spare pair of struts....
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reluctantartist wrote:
Yes, please do this. I would greatly appreciate it.


You could CC me too Ray, I would also greatly appreciate it. I'll pm you my email addy, thank you.

Brad
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give me until the weekend. I have, several work projects that are wucking up my time. I am going fo try to present this in as cohesive a manner as possible.

Its not hard to do.......but there is a bit more to it than meets the eye only because of how many variations there were in bump stop, steel bushing l, strut cartridge and a few other items.

For example....there were 3 different strut bushings through the years, two different springs (not a big deal), two different spacer bushings and both could be used with or without the 15mm added spacer.

I have pictures of all the variations. The first order of business is to decide what you have and what you want to do. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If possible Ray, here's my mail-adress: [email protected]
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