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Lowering a 411/ 412
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412Variant
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:16 am    Post subject: Another 412 front suspension lowering devotee Reply with quote

Hi all, I've begun restoration work on my '73 412 and as most of you already know, safely lowering the front end while improving suspension performance is my first priority. I have read this thread so many times my head hurts trying to make some sense of it all. All I know for sure is that I WILL NOT cut the springs. I'd be happy with the car being level without having to keep the gas tank full and carry a passenger in the front. I'm seriously considering Ray's Audi strut conversion, however one thing I've noticed is that despite numerous requests for part numbers, etc. (specific information) the ones in the know reply with vague data. How do I make the extension shaft? What material do I use for the shim inside the cartridge strut? Bearing housing what?

Specific detailed information PLEASE.

Ray, if I haven't already pi$$ed you off, please ad me to your recent list of members who want to pursue your Audi conversion. I will try to PM you with my email address. Thanks guys. J.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Another 412 front suspension lowering devotee Reply with quote

412Variant wrote:
Hi all, I've begun restoration work on my '73 412 and as most of you already know, safely lowering the front end while improving suspension performance is my first priority. I have read this thread so many times my head hurts trying to make some sense of it all. All I know for sure is that I WILL NOT cut the springs. I'd be happy with the car being level without having to keep the gas tank full and carry a passenger in the front. I'm seriously considering Ray's Audi strut conversion, however one thing I've noticed is that despite numerous requests for part numbers, etc. (specific information) the ones in the know reply with vague data. How do I make the extension shaft? What material do I use for the shim inside the cartridge strut? Bearing housing what?

Specific detailed information PLEASE.

Ray, if I haven't already pi$$ed you off, please ad me to your recent list of members who want to pursue your Audi conversion. I will try to PM you with my email address. Thanks guys. J.


Laughing Nobody is pissing me off! I truly know how it is. When you get the time window.... with the money.... to fix something...you need what you need and its urgent.

The way I am going to publish this...hopefully by Friday.....is here on the Samba and the STF as a series of links to a Photobucket or dropbox account.

Each link will be to a Microsoft word document. Each document will be pages in order with about 2 photos per page and a lengthy how-to and description caption with pages of numbered directions in between.
I am breaking it into individual documents or chapters so they will not be too large to download. In this way the pictures only need to be reduced by about 30% so they can be expanded if need be for detail.

I will put it in the permanent Samba archive only when its in a complete "flip book" so its size will be reasonable and can be exported as a complete document.

As others have noted....this conversion is actually pretty simple....especially if you are doing no upgrades or changes like lowering a bit or improving tightness/control.

There are two ways to think about this modification and what it will give you and what you should b asking yourself:

1. Do I just want replaceable struts with no other changes......just bone stock....this is the easiest to do.....but the problem with just doing te bare minimum is that it will wear out other parts. But if you are working on a rolling restoration.....this will get you new replaceable strut cartridges for about $250 or less total outlay.

2. Do I want the replaceable struts.......but ask yourself.... if I am going through the trouble to do anything at all.....do I also want either level front end and/or slight lowering and/or do I want tighter handling than stock and/or do I want to get rid of some of the wear items in the strut assembly....all at the same time.
Also...the extra mods....are all less than Maybe $75 total outlay more than just adding struts and the extender stub. Its just more labor and more time consuming but has very little added expense.

That second item/version has quite a slew of really small and very simple detail modifications....some of which go into the first option...some dont. Its why its not just as simple as e-mailing someone the blueprint of the stub.

Also.....there were three version of the struts between 1968 and 1974...and several smallish re-combinations of bushings and parts that confuse things...and there is no text with all three versions side by side in it.

This whole strut modification also leads directly into the other front end mods....that I am trying to be careful to recommend as needed improvements in the strut document for longevity....but without getting off track.

These are mods like: delrin control arm bushings (or at minimum new stockish bushings), bronze idler bushing, new radius arm bushings, new improved strut bushings and spacers, improved sway bar bushings, strut boots, castor adjustment, camber adjustment, ball joint greasing and sealing mods.

Most if not all of these will enhance handling. Those that dont at least enhance longevity as compared to stock parts.....and in almost all of those cases....realize that I would probably be almost happy with stock parts....but since they are simply not available.......... and if I have to MAKE a part......its damn sure going to be better and last longer than a stock part from 45 year ago.

Thats what this whole thing is about. Bear with me. Its coming. Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Another 412 front suspension lowering devotee Reply with quote

412Variant wrote:
Hi all, I've begun restoration work on my '73 412 and as most of you already know, safely lowering the front end while improving suspension performance is my first priority. I have read this thread so many times my head hurts trying to make some sense of it all. All I know for sure is that I WILL NOT cut the springs. I'd be happy with the car being level without having to keep the gas tank full and carry a passenger in the front. I'm seriously considering Ray's Audi strut conversion, however one thing I've noticed is that despite numerous requests for part numbers, etc. (specific information) the ones in the know reply with vague data. How do I make the extension shaft? What material do I use for the shim inside the cartridge strut? Bearing housing what?

Specific detailed information PLEASE.

Ray, if I haven't already pi$$ed you off, please ad me to your recent list of members who want to pursue your Audi conversion. I will try to PM you with my email address. Thanks guys. J.


Yes...it does sound a little vague Laughing ....but its really not. There are NO part #'s to list other than part #'s of what you have for identification of what version of strut you have and getting your bearings of where to start.

This is a modification of the existing strut to use a different damper cartridge. So outside of the new cartridge...everything else you have to fabricate yourself so no part #.

The table of contents list for the document goes like this so far:
1. Strut version diagrams
2. Pics and extended length measurements for complete strut using stock housings with stock early cartridge versions, late cartridge versions and Audi cartridge versions with stub adapter....all three with both early and late strut mount
3. Height variations caused by adding or deleting the 15mm bushing that came with stock aftermarket strut cartridges

4. Bump stop variations early and late with bump stop steel bushing variations

5. Modifying stock bump stop steel bushing for adapter stubs for stock height, level height or lowered height

6. Stock bump stop steel bushing and rubber bump stop mods to install new aftermarket strut boots

7. Through hole modification in top spring plate for strut rod (slight lowering of .125" and smoother turning)

8. Reducing slop in strut bushing/bearing and shim stack up (slight lowering of .125"-.375" max), friction reducing bushings how to, improving the tightness of stock late model (1974) strut bearing

9. Late and early strut bushing comparison, composite strut bushing comparison (requires welding)

10. New cartridge top spacer how to

11. Cartridge lower bolster how to

12. Modifying/trimming threads on new cartridge to fit s\stub

13. attaching stub, locking threads and safety of joint

14. Trimming top threads and slotting shaft after mock up assembly

15. Assembly


Ray
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412Variant
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray, I am blown away by your incredible thoroughness. THANK YOU, I can't wait to get started on this project.

That said......, I will patiently await your completed instructions.

J.

'56 Type1, Oval
Fully restored & modified w/ Type 4 engine

'73 Type4, Variant
To be a clean daily driver
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its moving along. One of the biggest problems I have had this year with pictures is that I had a 1 terabyte drive crash early in the yearm had to go through recovery process to get data back.....all the while still taking more pictures and loading into a new 500 mb drive.....which very quickly had a driver issue......jeeeeez.
just pulling pictures to someplace safe from that drive takes hours. Then sorting and cor4ecting and dropping into a document....then writing copy. Not far off though. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An update......and my apologies to all who have been waiting. I am very close to having this document done.

I had some picture loss from one of my drives so some of the pictures had to be retaken...long story...but I have moved assembly from the frigid below zero garage to my in-the-house shop room. It meant putting the engine assembly in storage temporarily....but this has to get done.

In putting all of this into a document...I suddenly realized how easy this modification is.........IF....you know exactly what you have, ...what version of the three version of strut made....and what to do with each version.

If you study what needs to be done...and buy all your parts and have all of your tools on hand....you can do this in a weekend...maybe less.

Or....depending on what collection of parts your car has.....you can get really lost in the minutia and have poor fit and performance.

I realized sometime back that its not just a quick document with good pictures that is needed.

So...the first ten pages of this document are just factory diagrams ...with significant differences in parts labeled for early, middle and late years.

The material section with part #'s that are up to date.....and a list of where to get parts.....and a tool list.

This is the time consuming stuff and its pretty much done. The rest is pretty much loading in the few new pictures....and putting in the captions.

I also forgot in my haste thinking about this modification.....that many in Europe have the early cars. Virtually none of those ever made it here with those parts....totally different bearings, bump stops and spring perches. The design I call the middle years...was late 70/71 through early 1972. Very few of those here either...pretty much 1971.

I had to lay this out so even with the very oldest design....you can either make the choice of keeping your old parts and doing no body opening mods for the 1974 and later strut bushing.....and from what is done you will know from the document what you must measure to make the cartridge, friction rings, adapter stub and bushings work with your parts.

You also have some choices for lowering...from the just whats required lowering of about .9" just enough for dead level....or up to about 1.75" (i will have exact amount after assembly tests).....up to the limit I have found that the springs can handle.

It will be done in February. Maybe sooner than you think.

Really sorry for the delay. Ray
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hulken
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could these http://silverproject.eu/en/shop/suspension-vw/camber-plates-volkswagen-super-beetle-1974-79/ be used to have the possibility of adjustable camber?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hulken wrote:
Could these http://silverproject.eu/en/shop/suspension-vw/camber-plates-volkswagen-super-beetle-1974-79/ be used to have the possibility of adjustable camber?


Very nice!...the answer is yes and no.

Yes.....that would do excellently for the range of adjustment needed.

No...because that strut plate shape....will not physically fit within the strut tower of a 411 or 4412 and the car cannot be modified to fit that plate.
However....the plate could be modified with cutting and welding to fit in the car. It will basically have to be made round and the bolts redistributed Into a symmetrical 120° pattern for early cars and a different staggered pattern for the late cars. I outline a little of this in the document.

The other question I have about that part.....is that it appears to have no rubber bushing. Awesome for racing but that is going to make difficulties in castor adjustment later because it does not flex fore and aft. You will have to shim the plate once you install castor.

But its a really cool and modern design. Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might not ned need them, I have hopefully found some 411412165E ecsentric (?) ball joint. Haven't seen them yet, but they are NOS VW with the "E" part number.
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Lahti411
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm using asymmetrical Bug strut bearings in my 1972 411. They fit easily into the strut tower. I just had to drill new holes for the bolts but that was an easy job. Those bearings with adjustment woul need bigger hole to be cut for the bearing/adjustmen section, but iof the plate shape is the same with the standard one it will fit.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lahti411 wrote:
I'm using asymmetrical Bug strut bearings in my 1972 411. They fit easily into the strut tower. I just had to drill new holes for the bolts but that was an easy job. Those bearings with adjustment woul need bigger hole to be cut for the bearing/adjustmen section, but iof the plate shape is the same with the standard one it will fit.


Thanks for the reminder that this is possible on the "middle years" cars. I had forgot thatcyhe bonded early superbeetle bushing would physically fit inside of the strut tower.

I was working toward getting the 74 and later strut bushing into the strut tower for so long.....requiring opening up of the center hole.....that I had forgotten that the early bonded bushing will fit the center hole.

I was working hard to get away from the early style bonded bushings altogether....because back when I did these mods....late 90s.....bonded bushings of any, quality for early SB were just as hard to get as bonded units for 411/412....and had the same long term wear issues in hot climate.
The early super beetle bonded bushings are easy to get now. I will noted this mod in the document as well.
working on it as I speak/write.

One of the hardest parts about this document....is the fact that VW had three major strut designs in 6 years. The factory and aftermarket texts were so poor....that the popular, aftermarket strut cartridge kits had errors in the adapter ring inclusion and usage.

On this continent....the very first year 1971....what few were shipped here....had a mix of 1969-70 only struts and 1971 to 1973 struts. The 1974 is similar but slightly different from the SB part but used many SB parts.

Add to that over the years...owners replacing their factory strut cartridges with aftermarket kits would keep parts in the mix that should not have been used and ommited parts from the Original strut that should have been used or vice versa.

The first 30 pages are diagrams and pictures ...and history....so owners of any years can identify what they have.
The real importance of part identification with this modification......is really so you know what strut rod spacers you have as well as what other spacers you have in the stack up.....so you know what to keep and what to discard or modify.....to use the stub adapter without guesswork.

As has been noted...the audi strut mod is really simple. ....IF you know what parts you have and know your way around these struts. Its coming. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AN UPDATE

Yes...I m working on this and its nearly complete. It will be worth the wait.

This is an excerpt from a conversation elsewhere in the 411/412 forums this morning that needed to be moved here:



.......As an aside note .....as I mentioned above.....and as a teaser of things to come......I have all of my photos and texts with me as I have been traveling for business over the past month. I work on the strut document every night. It will end up being a bit over 100 pages......mostly pictures.

During all of this....going through years of notebooks on all of the mods and methods that finally resulted in not only just the basic modification....but a very refined modification, I found overall that there were (as I have mentioned before) :
three totally different strut designs from the factory with a fourth sub-version that was early 1974 only as well as special adapter parts made by the factory to adapt earlier strut designs to later factory strut cartridges and vice versa.....as well as the adapter pieces made by aftermarket cartridge companies to adapt to early and late cars.

Going through 10 years of notes spanning 4 vehicles I owned and about 40 I worked on.....it was clear that at the ages the vehicles were......almost all of them had been worked on by a combination of dealer, private mechanics and owners....and most had a mixture of parts in them......and not always the correct mix.

This is what can make such a simple modification difficult for a 411or 412 owner who is not really knowledgeable about minute history of these cars.

So the first 30 pages of this document is parts identification and history. I am still misskng most of the history of the first two years of 411(1969 and 1970). We just did not see them here.....so as I collect that information from some of our European friends.....I will update the document. But there is enough information to allow early 411 drivers to understand what to measure to make this mod on their car.....or simply convert to the later "middle years" 411 and 412 design.

And......as of this week.....I found an AWESOME solution for new ball joints. It will require the making of a simple adapter block of machined metal to go between the steering knuckle and the new ball joint...and to have the taper bores in the control arms reamed to a slight oversize.
in exchange for that work......you get a ball joint that is heavier duty than stock...made for racing and offroad, is fully USER REBUILDABLE.....with all parts available including boots and is put togther by snap ring. The joints are about $80 each. As soon as aquire one and lay out the bracket.....and make sure it fits and works......I will post all of it.


I will repost all of this under the correct thread....but since we are talking about history....I thought it would be useful. Ray


.........
Lahti411 wrote:
You are right Ray, the first model year was changed heavily as the public was not responding to it as well as VW wanted. I've been thinking how i could give you the information about the front end changes i have as they are all in finnish... I have a dealer workshop manual with lots of additional pages that explain which changes were made and why and which parts are interchangeable and which changes need more parts to be changed if an update is required.


I can give you a list of what I need by tomorrow. I have the exploded view....that is no problem.

The details I need are what the thicknesses of parts were in the original earlt, struts used from 1969 to july of 1970. So typically if you have a complete strut laying around.....I would need to know:

1. what the distance is between the edge of the top spring plate and bottom alspring plate is. This tells me what the overall height setting is.

I have a 99% accurate drawing of the 1969/70 bump stop spacer. That is what sets the overall height, difference between early and later struts.

2. And I know the part # of the early bump stop but do not have one....so it would be nice to know the step dimensions inside of it. I have 99% accurate dimensions for it but itcwould be nice to Verify what I have.

3. I would like to know the thickness and dish depth of the early top spring seat plate. It is the only plate made this way.

4. I would like to know the total thickness of the bonded rubber bearing cartridge

5. and the thickness of the friction shell/ring in top of it

6. I would like to know the total thickness of the top support/mount plate

7. I would like to know the thickness of the top damping ring that goes on top of the plate

8. I woule like to know the thickness of the friction ring that goes on top of the damping ring

9. I would like to know the thickness of the top dished washer/cap

10. Lastly....and this would really take care of all of it.....if I can know the total stack up thickness of all items from the underside of the top spring seat dish to the top side of the mounting plate.....it would verify everything I need to know.

The difference in the early strut and the later struts. ...really for purposes of modifying to the Audi strut cartridge......is a difference in the step distance on the factory strut and the bump stop spacer it requires. The total installed height of the strut from early to late are the same.....this is why if you damaged a strut from a 1969-70 model some years after production ended.....a dealer could install a factory catridge from July of 1970 to August 1972.....using your 1969-70 spring, spring seats, bump stop, upper hardware and strut mount...simply by changing one bushing.

This has been noted in only one text I have ever found. So from this text....I have been able to know what the step difference was between the early and late struts.
So I have been able to note any differences in the adapter stub for those who have early vehicles and want to keep all of their original springs and hardware.

I really need this just to verify. I had one example from a wreck long ago...20+ years ago....and it got discarded Crying or Very sad

The other, reason why I would like to know the total stack up thickness of each part on the top.....is that as part of this document and on my own mods.....I have found spacer areas in each strut model that can be decreased. This not only makes the strut more stable and blvibration free.....
it cumulatively lowers the height of the strut in measured amounts. I have drawings for each strut model in my document. ...that outline the improvements and small mods to make....and list the lowering to be safely gained for each model.
They range from leaving it stock to .9" which sets most cars dead level front to back.....to a total of 1.35" of lowering with just spacers and friction bearing mods......and options of up to about 1.75" of lowering if you want to modify the stub, adapter step height.

I am on my phone right now. When I sit down I will move this segment to the appropriate thread. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Lowering a 411/ 412 Reply with quote

I have a 1973 412 I heard BMW E30 coilovers were a good fit also has anyone tried this? wanting to lower mine once it's restored and a guy from california told me he used those on the front and just a spring for the back i need help with a set up
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowering a 411/ 412 Reply with quote

Davis412 wrote:
I have a 1973 412 I heard BMW E30 coilovers were a good fit also has anyone tried this? wanting to lower mine once it's restored and a guy from california told me he used those on the front and just a spring for the back i need help with a set up


It depends on what you mean by lowering. How far do you want to go? You cannot dafely "slam" these car. They are already low underneath.

The E30 set up....is probably the lowest.....but its not just the spring. It also uses the Audi strut cartridge mod or a version of it. You cannot lower just using a spring. It requires better valving and shorter strut rod. Its a specific combo.

You cannot safely lower the rear....just by using a spring. You MUST have a shock. Let us know what you want. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowering a 411/ 412 Reply with quote

yeah I can't quite remember what he said but he didn't "slam" the rear he just raked it out the front end he said was a BMW e30 coilover except he had to fabricate the hats and the rear was lowered the slightest bit if I were to lower the front end on BMW e30 coilovers what else would I need I'm fairly new to this being my first "build" I really appreciate the feedback
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowering a 411/ 412 Reply with quote

Davis412 wrote:
yeah I can't quite remember what he said but he didn't "slam" the rear he just raked it out the front end he said was a BMW e30 coilover except he had to fabricate the hats and the rear was lowered the slightest bit if I were to lower the front end on BMW e30 coilovers what else would I need I'm fairly new to this being my first "build" I really appreciate the feedback


Go to thks link to my dropbox and read througb this whole document.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oa14cvfncmyreur/VW%20411...s.doc?dl=0

Understand that springs have nothing to do with lowering. The strut rod length accomplishes the lowering. You may NEED short stiffer spring like the E30 spring....to contril that now lowered strut....but in general......these struts do not have much compression of the spring once the cars weight is on it. So yes.....you could make the car llwer....temporarily,with JUST a,sjirter spring but when that wheel goes into a hole.....and extends full length on a strut rod that is longer than it needs to be...mit over extends and loses control.

The guy who did the CORRECT E30 mod is BillK. But its not just a stock strut witb an E30 sprng. Its a different strut cartridge, a custom upper hat and some spacing work. It uses the same Audi cartridge as the mod I outline in that document......but uses it,differently.


It does this because you need different and better valving than the stock strut.

Is this your first,VW build....or your first 411/412 build? This is not a simple car to work on.

To keep from breaking things that you cannot buy....you need to have good ball joints, tie rod ends, correct the issues with the idler arm bushing and the centerlink as well. I will gibe you links to all of that in the am.

Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:09 am    Post subject: Re: Lowering a 411/ 412 Reply with quote

It's my first build entirely I wanted an older vw and I got 2 412s for 800 bucks off of these trike guys that take the transmission out of them for their trikes thanks for the help!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:59 am    Post subject: Re: Lowering a 411/ 412 Reply with quote

Also my main hold up on the project is the master cylinders i am turning this car into a manual and found a stock hydraulic pedal assembly and both the brake and clutch master were toast I can't find any new parts that are in stock and the only place I found that would rebuild these is a place in the U.K. but it is very costly to send and do
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowering a 411/ 412 Reply with quote

Read my notes on master cylinders.

If the bore is in good shape...you cam buy a type 3 kit...toss the pistons (they do not fit) and use the seals, flap valves and boot.

If you have very minor rust...you can buy a 600 grit flexhone...no less than this...and clean it up. You do not want the bore to be oversized more than .005" from the head on the pistons. Your pistons can be reused.

Swapping to a 4 speed is easy but you MUST have all of the parts...you need to do the proper engine to drivetrain alignment ( I have a post how to on this as well)....and you really need to go through the 4 speed if you want to keep it alive...and you will need to rebuild the clutch master and slave....or work to find a new slave.

Where are you getting the 004 four speed? Ray
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Davis412
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Joined: May 23, 2016
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Location: Sharpsville
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:55 am    Post subject: Re: Lowering a 411/ 412 Reply with quote

a bus tranny
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Volkswagen 1973 412 for sale no motor or Tranny with great body can't figure out the website so please contact a grand obo
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