rusty bus

[BusBerd]

I have been trolling the Body/Paint forum of samba trying to educate myself a little on rust work.
I have a '77 VW Camper Bus that I have been restoring and working on since 2005. Because of financial difficulties I had to sell my daily driver car and use my bus as a daily driver through the past two winters. So now the rust issue with my bus has accelerated. I was holding off on getting to the body work on the bus because that is and area where i feel quite ignorant.
Here is what I think I want to do:
I would like to sand down the bus to the metal. I don't have a sandblaster or even a air compressor. I was thinking of doing this with my electric drill and some sanding accessories. bad idea? I started a bit on the bumper in the pics below.
I may not be able to get to painting the bus for a while, so I need to use a primer that will be appropriate to sit on the bus for a while.
I generally like stock for my bus, but I am not looking to have a show car. I still want to use the bus to take road trips and camp in, but I want to address the rust issue as thoroughly as I can afford right now before it starts eating through panels.
Once I win the lottery, I will give the bus an acid bath and work up from there, but until then i need to try to do what I can with the resources I have. But in reading through some of the posts here, I am a bit concerned that I do not do irreparable damage or just simply waste my time by not preping correctly.
So, first step, removing the rust down to the metal. what would you recommend for this. Is the electric drill a safe route? any special bit other than sand paper that I should use? Do paint stripping chemicals help?
Any advice for my specific situation would be greatly appreciated. I will post my progress to hopefully help others who are as completely novice as i am.
Thanks!

_________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission

[djkeev]

You are about to open the proverbial Pandora's Box!

Those little bubbles of rust on the bottom of the door will reveal themselves to be rusted out craters once you start removing paint and rusty metal.

You will most likely find similar or worse as you look around and UNDER the car. Check the rockers, check around the tail lights and back bumper, check under the floor boards.

The Rust spots that are on the front, probably simple stone chips with no serious rust would be my guess.

Proceed with your eyes wide open and a good body shop or buddy who can weld on speed dial.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[BusBerd]

[Mike Fisher]

You can do a lot with a wire wheel or 3M flapper strippers wheel on your electric drill. Just worry about the rusty spots.
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

[zeroman]

Yea. those rust spots on the edges and corners are all the way through easy.

I found its a lot less messy and a reasonable amount faster to use a spray on aircraft stripper, and cheaper in the end. That's a lot of 3m paint wheels and sand paper trying to grind through all that, and in the end, you'd likely have scarring from it.
I've had good luck with plain ol tal-strip, available everywhere.

DOn't get discouraged, its not rocket science. A bit of chemistry, basic physics and metallurgy but no rockets. I just cut, welded and repainted my first door. Worked out beautifully first time. Took me a while, but it'll speed up.
_________________
77 super convertible

[djkeev]

Start easy. The nose probably will not need any welding. A good grinding / sanding, a little filler, some high build primer and a quick coat of paint. A good place to learn about treating metal for rust and for proper primer adhesion, etc.

I'd work myself up to that door. That is your problem child. You will be cutting and welding in bits, either premade panels or self formed metal. Do NOT be tempted with fiberglass and bondo. A friend who can weld, a case of beer and dinner out somewhere should do it.

Read, read, read and search this forum as well as others. There is a LOT of advice already on here about how to do what you are about to embark upon.

Remember, primer is a paint adhering aid and a short term surface rust preventer. It will NOT prevent any rust over the long haul, that is why the auto God's make auto paint. Sadly, auto paint needs primer to stick properly to metal.
Read, read, read then start grinding, sanding, etc. is my advice.

Also, limited funds, limited tools, probably limited time......just make repairs for now, don' go stripping the whole car and making an impossible to complete overwhelming project, but make good proper repairs so you don't need to do it again in two years. Have an auto paint store mix you up a quart of paint to match your car, they also will have the proper primers, fillers, etc that you will need. Avoid WalMart and their pitiful selection of crappy cheap products, shop at an auto paint store, spend a few more dollars but get quality products.

Dave

PS, or..... go ahead strip the whole vehicle, get overwhelmed, abandon the project and out of shear frustration sell it as a basket case to me, I've been looking for a good Westy to fix up!
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[BusBerd]

Thanks guys!

I do plan to do my reading and research, but it just seems a bit overwhelming right now at the start. There is so much information (seemingly conflicting information sometimes too). so I am trying to take it (and understand it) one step at a time.

I think I WILL take the advice to start with the nose and leave the door for when I feel I have a better understanding of working with the metal and paint. I know a welder that I may be able to bride to do some work on the door, but that is a while off right now. I think I will also take the advice to NOT attempt to strip the whole bus of paint, but instead work on the trouble spots. However, this doesn't mean just painting the trouble spots as well,right??? I mean I think it would be good to prepare the whole bus (the outside) to be painted. But I guess I am getting ahead of myself there. one step at a time.

So question:
Once I get the rust spots clean and down to the bare metal (with an increasingly fine variety of sand paper, right? do I need to be worried about damaging, scaring, or gouging the metal), then how do I treat the bare metal getting it ready for the primer? And how long of a window do I have before I should be applying a primer to the bare metal? From what I have already read, this seems to be a crucial window of time.

I guess all of that should be included in a "Step One" if this journey. Once I get the rust off and the primer on, then I am at a stopping point to do some more research for the next step. right??

Thanks so much guys!!!
Robert
_________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission

[zeroman]

No.. just get it off. Don't worry about doing anything but grinding the metal too thin or warping it with too much heat.

Get a grinder and a twisted wire cup .. maybe some other stuff and get the paint off.. Don't pussy foot around it. Just take it off. Even if you were going to save some of the paint and just spot repair for now, you don't want to be wasting your time with sand paper. Furthermore, you'll be hitting it with 40-80 grit to put body filler on it later anyway. Don't be fooled by a wire wheel, it can polish metal to where it won't adhere to anything.

Grinder or chemical. Don't even bother with sand paper at first. That thing is far too gone to try to spot paint it. I mean, if you want to really fix it vs just cover it. Do a chunk at a time if you're hard up for time you can wd -40 the bare metal (every couple days) to keep it from getting stupid rusty, just be sure to clean it very thoroughly when its paint time.

Then you'll be grinding out that rust or cutting it out. Don't try to "convert" it. There's no such thing. Grind out or cut what you can then if there's still some pits that don't warrant cutting out the whole panel. You can drill and weld them, or acid the rust away with something like naval jelly.



You'll make holes. If you have access to a welder, weld patches on them. Otherwise, glue or rivet patches. Don't fiberglass holes, its just not worth it.

Ok, you can get away with fiberglassing a pock marked panel. But its not the best. I thought it would be easier to do fiberglass hair repairs. But even crappy welding is nicer than good fiberglassing. Fiber over your crappy welding if need be.


And lastly, its not super cheap to get done. Make sure you have some funds available or you'll wear out your shoulder or hit a dead end when you can't afford more tool.
_________________
77 super convertible

[BusBerd]

Do you mean an "Angle Grinder" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_grinder with a twisted wire cup
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-inch-twisted-wire-c...googlebase?

That seems like it would come off a lot quicker using that angle grinder and a twisted wire cup. I don't have an angle grinder, but i could ask around to see if I could borrow one from a friend or maybe look for a cheap one. They seem to be priced from $50 up to $200. hmm...

I will post photos of my progress when I have some progress.

I have many more questions, but I am going to focus on only one step at a time and keep those other questions for when I am ready to tackle them.

Right now: focusing on getting the rust off the nose and bumper.

Thanks!! I appreciate your help!
Robert
_________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission

[zeroman]

get a wire cup FOR the angle grinder. Do NOT grind paint off. You'll thin out your metal far too much and make a mess of it. The wire cup is awesome It does tend to make a mess with debris, but it comes off in chunks big enough to not float in the air. Its like sand.

I've still got the angle grinder I bought a couple decades ago and has likely hundreds of hours on it. Its only 20 bucks at harbor freight. A wire cup will last a good long time.. but will cost about the same as a cheap grinder. Definitely have to have some good goggles if you use one. They throw wires on occasion and will stick in any flesh they hit. Not to mention the paint bits. The twisted cups can generate heat pretty quickly. You got to move them around or you will warp the hell out of your panels. as an amateur you won't ever come close to straightening those big curvy panels on those things. Don't hesitate in any one place at all. keep moving. You'll want to focus on the rust spots. Not a good idea. You'll get a "dent" from where the metal heated and shrinks. Then you have to stretch it back out and try to get it to shrink just right again by applying more heat. Its pretty irritating to learn so try to stay out of that situation. Welding will absolutely require metal repair due to the shrinking.

I was recently in the hospital getting a piece of rusty metal removed from my iris, and I wear goggles as much as I can remember. Sometimes forget for a few seconds in between welding and grinding , I get a bit manic. Believe me its not something you want to deal with. They remove it with something that resembles a dentist drill.
_________________
77 super convertible

[Mike Fisher]

I prefer the 4" wire wheel on my drill rather than the wire cup on my grinder. You will need extra 1/8" grinding wheels for your 4.5" grinder too. Buy your own grinder/drill etc!
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

[BusBerd]

Ok, I was thinking about this today and wondering why I couldn't use a twisted wire cup with my electric drill instead of buy an angle grinder. Is it because it is more awkward to handle with the drill, or maybe that the angle grinder has a higher speed and thus faster and more efficient for taking the paint off? What is the benefit of using the angle grinder versus finding a twisted wire cup attachment for my electric drill.
I am going to the store today to price some angle grinders.
Thanks!
Robert
_________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission

[bomberbaja]

just get like a $20 grinder from HF. I've used drill wire wheels, and they are a joke. a grinder will be MUCH more effective.

[djkeev]

Drills are made to drill holes, maybe run in a screw but they suck at that.

Angle Grinders are made to remove stuff. Aggressively, dangerously, sparks flying, debris flying, etc. They are geared to do this type of work. They don't cost much, $40 will get you a tad better than harbor freight (hate their power tools, mostly crap) $100 will get you a work horse that will last for your life time and your sons.

It's pretty much preference, twisted wire, wire cup, wire wheel, whatever you find works best for you, use it.

Good luck, don't get buried by this project, small pieces start to paint and move on to the next spot.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[BusBerd]

I went to Harbor freight and invested in these tools. the angle grinder was $19.99. I used the Bowl Cup Brush attachment on the angle grinder today and I took pics of my progress.

I am seeing liver spots (sorry. I don't now what to call them) on the metal after I get the paint off. Do I need to grind the metal down even further?

And what about the backside of the bumper? I noticed some surface rust and I grinded it away. I noticed most of the rust occurred where the bumper held water because of a tight seal to the body of the car. I wonder if a washer/spacer between the bumper and the body of the bus woudl give just enough space for the water to flow out. what would be best for the back side of this bumper? undercoating??

after my practice on the heavier metal of the bumper, I decided to try a bit of the nose. As I progress further, I am noticing that the last layer of paint or primer or whatever is white and a bit more difficult to remove. I am being cautious not to linger too long in one spot so that the metal does not heat up.

SO, should I be treating this bare metal with something if I am not going to be able to get back to it for a few days or a week?(the bus is parked in my garage all day and night)
Should I strip the paint and primer off the whole front nose?
Thanks guys!!
Robert
_________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission

[djkeev]

You will need some rust treatment on those discolored spots. What brand? Up to you and what is available locally.

Surface rust will form in the northern humid states QUICKLY !!! Cover that bare metal with something. Easy and cheap is rattle can paint. It comes off easy and it blocks moisture from getting in. Be sure to remove it all before you properly prime and paint.

I keep saying don't get in too deep doing a HUGE area for discouragement could set in. Do NOT become this car! 10 years in a barn after being prepped for paint. It is easy to slide into this situation.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=421280

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[BusBerd]

I was thinking of trying POR-15. I have never used the stuff before, of course, but over the years, I have read a decent amount about it in the Bay Window Bus forum. In the sticky here in the Body/Paint forum with the rusting metal test, POR-15 does pretty well.

When you say that I need to cover the bare metal "QUICKLY!!!", what are we talking about? a matter of minutes, hours, days? I haven't done anything to the bare metal yet and it has been sitting in my garage overnight. Humidity is at 30% today.

I don't think I am doing a HUGE area, right? just the nose. I started with the bumper since it is a thicker metal and it is separate and detachable. Once I felt comfortable with the new angle grinder I started to work a little on the nose. the temptation to try it out was too great.

have I started to big?

Thanks again!!
Robert
_________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission

[Mike Fisher]

POR 15 is only used on pans/inner fenders/chassis not on the outer body. Buy some Rust-Prep or similar liquid rust killer/filler/sanding block/rattle can primer @ your local Auto Paint Supplier. Do 1 "fender" at a time. The rattle can primer primer can be scuffed and sprayed with epoxy primer before the new paint.
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

[djkeev]

POR15 is for rusty metal that is still pretty rusty, the paint converts that metal and adheres to it, it doesn't adhere well to clean metal.

Something like naval jelly or similar, there are many discussions on what is best, you just really need to read and decide what is best for you.

Here in the humid NE I'll spray a coat of paint on at the end of every work session to keep rust at bay.

Stay away from rattle can primer, the stuff is really inferior and shouldn't be counted upon for a quality base coat for finish paint. Go ahead, use it for temporary protection but take it all off before final paint. Also primer, any primer isn't moisture proof. It is made to adhere to metal and for paint to adhere to it, it isn't a weather coat of any sort. Look around, you'll find a lot of cars with unprotected primer rusting through the primer.
If you've no other choice use the cans but try not to. You'd be better off buying a cheap HVLP sprayer from Home Depot and using that instead of a rattle can. A little more messy but will apply a quality primer in a decent fashion.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet...arketID=15

Actually an HVLP CAN do a decent finish coat as well. I've a professional quality multi stage turbine blower and gun and it lays down a really smooth layer of paint.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[BusBerd]

OK, this might be where i get a little lost.

Maybe I should narrow it down and focus on the process with the bumper. So, if I understand you correctly, even though the discoloration ("liver spots") in the metal on the bumper, it is NOT a candidate for POR-15. Instead I should use "naval jelly". ( I have no idea what that is but I will search for info on it).
Also, if I understand correctly, I can't leave bare metal exposed (albeit in the garage) for days, so i should work to a stopping point and end the day by applying a "naval jelly" to the metal where the surface rust was and then applying a primer coat to all of the bare metal, but not a rattle can primer. So, really this first step includes everything up to priming, since I can't leave bare metal exposed. So I am going to have to choose my rust inhibitor and primer now. I didn't think I would have to think about that until further down the process.
hmmm....
_________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission