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Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue
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german_metal
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:37 pm    Post subject: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Hi-

I have a strange issue with my wiring. When the ignition is OFF on my 'late '62 bus equipped with emergency flashers, the turn signals will work and the emergency flashers will work. The turn signals should not work when the ignition is off though. Both have new 12V relays. But when I turn on the ignition the turn signals and emergency flashers will go solid and not flash at all. Seems like maybe a grounding issue but both relays are grounded. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks
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dstefun
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turn signals on '62-'65 with emergency flashers do work without the key on because the emergency flasher is powered on the same circuit as the turn signal flasher. To have emergency flashers work without the key on, VW wired both flashers to work without the key. But they are fused by fuse #1 (from the right).

If you want the turn signals to be switched by the key, then the emergency lights will also have to be switched. '62-'65 emergency lights use the turn signal relay to flash the rear lights and the emergency flasher relay to flash the front lights so they both have to be on the same circuit.

There shouldn't be a connection to either flasher relay from the ignition switch or fuse #2 (from the right) which is switched by the ignition switch. It sounds like maybe you have a switched connection going to the output of the turn signal flasher relay. Check your wiring. If you have a test light or meter, find out which terminal on which relay is going hot when you turn on the key.
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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're trying to hook up one of the modern solid state flasher units, I don't think what dstefun said applies. You can't have the turn signal relay and the e-flasher relay share the same power source, so one must be relocated to the #2 fuse (from the right). That will get that system going when the keys are on (not when they're off though I don't believe). This all assume, of course, there aren't underlying wiring issues. There was a thread about this not too long ago where a very similar issue was solved on my bus. It shouldn't be more than a page or two back by now.
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dstefun
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spectre6000's reply is correct if you're trying to use a 3 terminal turn signal relay instead of a correct 4 terminal relay. But doing it this way will not give you all 4 emergency lights with the key off. Depending on which relay is switched, you will probably have only the 2 rear emergency lights or none at all with the key off. With the key on emergency lights and turn signals should be OK.

My original answer applies if you're using a correct 4-terminal turn signal relay. And emergency lights will work with all 4 lights, all of the time, key on or off.

Here's one reason you need to move one of the relay power wires if you're using a 3-terminal turn signal relay (speedo dash light stays on with ignition switch off):

From an old thread ... (really applies to '62-'65 with emergency flashers, not just '63-'64 as noted below)
2Pack wrote:
Okay, now I see what's going on here. There is a subtle design difference in the turn signal circuit for ‘63 and ’64 buses versus the earlier models. Because of this difference, the older models can use the set up you described above, and the ‘63 and ’64 buses cannot without some (minor) modifications to the wiring.

On the earlier models (at least ‘57, '59, '60, and '61 model years, for which wiring diagrams are available on the site) the power to the turn signal relay is switched, so the power to the relay comes from Terminal 15 on the ignition switch (via a fuse).

On ‘63 and ’64 buses the power to the turn signal relay is not switched, so the power to the relay comes directly from the battery (via a fuse).

The reason this matters is that on the older models, when the ignition is OFF, the turn signal indicator light on the spedo has no voltage to either terminal. Whereas, for the ‘63 and ’64 models (wired using hazetguy's method), when the ignition is OFF, the turn signal indicator light in the spedo has 6V on the terminal from the turn signal relay. The other terminal on the light is connected to ground via the oil pressure indicator light and oil pressure indicator switch. So the turn signal indicator light is on all the time when the ignition is OFF for ‘63 and ’64 buses if wired as described above.

So, guys with the ’63 and ’64 stock wiring need to either take the black/white/green wire from the far-right fuse and move it over to the neighboring fuse OR find the correct relay, which I guess is a 63-64 only part. By the way, just because a relay has the “K” terminal mentioned earlier in this thread doesn't mean it is correct because the older relays have a “K” terminal also, but the terminal is wired up differently inside the relay.

On a sidenote, if you have a ’63 or ’64 bus and you move the black/white/green wire then your emergency flashers will only work with the ignition on. I think that's the reason for the difference in the circuit design - in ’63 they added the emergency flasher which I guess is intended to work with the ignition switch off.


As 2Pack noted above, all relays with a "K" terminal for the speedo dash light are not alike. Some give you a flashing ground on the "K" terminal (VW uses this kind) and others will give you a flashing hot. U.S. style relays usually give you a flashing hot so then you have to rewire the speedo dash light to make it work.
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german_metal
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstefun wrote:
Spectre6000's reply is correct if you're trying to use a 3 terminal turn signal relay instead of a correct 4 terminal relay. But doing it this way will not give you all 4 emergency lights with the key off. Depending on which relay is switched, you will probably have only the 2 rear emergency lights or none at all with the key off. With the key on emergency lights and turn signals should be OK.

My original answer applies if you're using a correct 4-terminal turn signal relay. And emergency lights will work with all 4 lights, all of the time, key on or off.

As 2Pack noted above, all relays with a "K" terminal for the speedo dash light are not alike. Some give you a flashing ground on the "K" terminal (VW uses this kind) and others will give you a flashing hot. U.S. style relays usually give you a flashing hot so then you have to rewire the speedo dash light to make it work.



I am using a 4 terminal flasher relay bought from CIP1 (because WW was out of stock) and a new emergency relay from WW. Tonight after work I will check my wiring for a hot lead from #2 in the fuse box first. Thank you both for your responses and I will report back what I find.
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Nitty
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, while I see some flasher experts are viewing this, let me ask a related question. I have a '66 originally 6 volt that has been converted to 12 volt by the PO, and the flasher wiring is not at all like the original wiring diagram. What I have now are two Schier Electronic Blinkgeber relays and a couple of diodes mounted on a piece of lucite. Seems like this arrangement makes for easy replacement when required with readily available modern components. Does this sound like a common conversion from back in the day? Would anyone have a wiring diagram of the conversion?
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dstefun
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does it look something like this one? If so, that's what was commonly available before WW introduced their 12V 9-pin relay for '66-'67 a couple of years ago. I haven't ever heard anything nice about this type but they must have worked, a lot of VW vendors sold them at one time. I have a new one of these packed away somewhere but have never tried it because the wiring directions were missing...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


But I did find an opinion about it in another thread ....
OG Velvet wrote:

Don't use that one. It is a screaming piece of shit. Use the WW newer style.
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Nitty
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, that's not the one. Next time of have the panels removed, I'll snap a photo.
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german_metal
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I was able to get it to work using spectre6000's method. Turn signals and emergency flashers only work when the key is on. Wish I could get the flashers to work with key off but I guess this will have to do for now. I traced all wires for what feels like the 39th time and still cannot see the issue. If I discover a resolution I will post for others. Thanks for the help!
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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They don't work with the key off, which sucks, but they work. If you figure out a way to get it to work with the key off, let me know.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Maybe just solved this. DEC62 single cab with early version of emergency flasher with no separate indicator bulb in the dash.

Have been running a three terminal "Ideal Corp Made In USA, Signal Flasher 268 fits Volkswagen" flasher since the mid 1980s. Have never been able to get the system to work wired up to constant power and that would cause the signal indicator in the speedo to dimly light up, in turn draining the battery.

Just for the heck of it pulled out the "relay" boxes and sorted thru to see if we had any other three terminal relays with the +, K, S terminals. Found a SWF relay Made In Germany. Installed that relay and connected the system to constant power and it works with key turned off and no dim lit speedo turn indicator!

Think the Ideal Corp relays will be fine for the pre-1966 type 1s and pre-emegency flasher type 2s. Other thing noted is that when pulling out relays found two more of this 268 model. Two of the relays have the +, K, S terminals and one has a piece of business card like stock punched out round like the relay and with the three terminal slots in the paper so it covered old terminal markings X (= +), P (= K), S (= L).
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Well still has a problem, with key off and pulled out the Emergency Flasher switch. Fuel gauge and Oil/Gen idiot lights flash on and off... Still better than before when could only have the E-flasher working with ignition switch on. So have to figure out how the voltage is back feeding to the ignition switch, and keep the points from getting fried if closed with the engine off.

Maybe the used SWF flasher is at fault, and a new relay will cure this, or this is the reason VW introduced the separate E-Flasher indicator light in the dash.
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nlorntson
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
three terminal relays with the +, K, S terminals.


I think this would be considered a 4 terminal relay; +, K, S, and ground?

3 terminal relay would be 49, 49a, ground.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

To a point yes, but the relay utilizes the mounting stud as a ground, so do not count that as a terminal due to no wire.
Have now found that while driving around the speedo flasher indicator will not light up.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

@Eric&Barb I have a similar issue with the turn signal indicator staying dimly lit with the ignition off.

    All turn signals work when the key is on
    Emergency flashers work with key on or off.
    Turn signal indicator light goes on and off with the front and rear lights as expected.
    This is wired per the 1964/65 wiring diagram that came with the new harness
    I'm using a S, K, + flasher relay
    6V system


This has the separate dash emergency flasher indicator light which is not lighting when the e-flashers are on.

What is causing my dimly lit speedo flasher light when the ignition is off?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

nlorntson wrote:

What is causing my dimly lit speedo flasher light when the ignition is off?


Which brand of relay are you using? That made the difference for us.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:

Which brand of relay are you using? That made the difference for us.


It's one that came with the vehicle from years ago prior to it's 12V conversion. Label says Tung-Sol 268.

I have one other S, K, + style to try.

What's weird is that everything (other than the dash light) flashes as expected.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Tung-sol was a company in the USA, so your flasher might have been made here. Just guessing that the then "NEW" flasher system was not what the USA relays were designed for.

Here is an interesting short history of Tung-sol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tung-Sol
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
nlorntson wrote:

What is causing my dimly lit speedo flasher light when the ignition is off?


Which brand of relay are you using? That made the difference for us.


So what are you suggesting I change to?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Since you are running a 12 volt system this one in the lowest of the left page probably would work as long as it is a German made one:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Not at all sure why it would need a separate ground wire though...
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Last edited by Eric&Barb on Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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