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Type 4 sensor locations and air flap control....
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ataim
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:38 am    Post subject: Type 4 sensor locations and air flap control.... Reply with quote

for head temp, oil temp and oil pressure? What kind of gauges for each (elec or machanical)? And how do you test-adjust the air flap controls?

Thanks.

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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For head temp, it is going to be an electrical thermocouple. You can go simple and cheap like with a VDO which is good for basic trending...or you can go with a corrected gauge from someone like Dakota digital or Westach. Either way its sensor mounts under the #3 or #4 spark plug.

Oil pressure should be an electronic gauge. Too many issues with a presure fed gauge and the distance to the front of the car. There are a handful of places you could mount a sensor depending on what you are most worried about. The standard oil pressure sensor hole is generally fine.

One of the better oil temp sensor positions is in the 3.5' round plate (called teh Taco plate around here). The Porsche 914's had a factory version of this plate that is specialy shaped and tapped for an oil temp sender. You will either need to insulate it on teh outside to keep the sender from cooling from teh wind...or better still...but the sensor inside of the plate and use a sealed bulkhead fitting for the wire with silicone shielding.

The flap control...that 1" high lever rearward of the #2 cylinder attached to the black rod.....should be nearly vertical (at the 1:00 position looking at it sideways toward the passenger side of the car)...when the engine is hot and thermostat is working.

The way to adjust it....with the engine cold.....is to hold the lever down at the approximately 10:00 position by pushing it forward. Slip the cable from the thermostat underneath the washer under the 7mm bolt and tighten it down. Generally you get it too loose the first time....and the lever rises back up slightly. Mark the wire with a black sharpy so you can see what the setting was and hold the lever down and tighten it again.

The easiestway to work this...is to slip a wooden wedge in between the cranked area of the flap crossbar right behind the distributor...between teh crossbar and the cooling manifold while you are holding the lever down. This holds the flaps in the closed position so you can use one hand to pull the cable tight and the other to tightne the 7mm bolt. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi raygreenwood, in the photo the flaps is in 100% hot position??

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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In that picture....your flaps are slightly messed up. The laft hand flap...the one that is covering the entrance to the oil cooler...has the small linkage turned the wrong direction.

The right hand flap....the one that is horizontal in your picture.... is wide open to give cooling air to the # 1 and 2 cylinders. When the 3 and 4 side is correctly set wide open....or 100% warmed up....it will be lifted about 1"-1.5" from the closed position where it is now so that some of the air can spill around it and flow through the oil cooler....and some can flow over the cylinders.

When you push the cylinder 1 and 2 side flap down into vertical position (closed for warm up)....if the 3 and 4 side flap lifts up....this means the small piece of linkage is pushed thewrong way.

Try this.....push the 1/2 side f lap down so it is vertical (closed off). The lever on the rod where the cable attaches will be at about 10:30 to 11:00 position when viewed looking along the rod facing the 1/2 side of the motor.

Take a wedge of wood....and stick it between the cranked area of the cross bar near the distributor....and the fan housing to hold the cross bar in place like a third hand.

Now...if the oil cooler flap has lifted when you do this....reach in with a small pair of needle nose pliers.....an reverse the small linkage bar that connects the oil cooler flap to the cross bar. It pushes backward or forward.

When you flip it the other way...the oil cooler cover flap will drop fully horizontal covering the oil cooler entrance.

So to sum up....when you are in the wram up phase (flaps closed) the cylinder 1/2 side flap will be vertical and the 3/4 side will be full horizontal blocking the oil cooler entrance. Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
In that picture....your flaps are slightly messed up. The laft hand flap...the one that is covering the entrance to the oil cooler...has the small linkage turned the wrong direction.

The right hand flap....the one that is horizontal in your picture.... is wide open to give cooling air to the # 1 and 2 cylinders. When the 3 and 4 side is correctly set wide open....or 100% warmed up....it will be lifted about 1"-1.5" from the closed position where it is now so that some of the air can spill around it and flow through the oil cooler....and some can flow over the cylinders.

When you push the cylinder 1 and 2 side flap down into vertical position (closed for warm up)....if the 3 and 4 side flap lifts up....this means the small piece of linkage is pushed thewrong way.

Try this.....push the 1/2 side f lap down so it is vertical (closed off). The lever on the rod where the cable attaches will be at about 10:30 to 11:00 position when viewed looking along the rod facing the 1/2 side of the motor.

Take a wedge of wood....and stick it between the cranked area of the cross bar near the distributor....and the fan housing to hold the cross bar in place like a third hand.

Now...if the oil cooler flap has lifted when you do this....reach in with a small pair of needle nose pliers.....an reverse the small linkage bar that connects the oil cooler flap to the cross bar. It pushes backward or forward.

When you flip it the other way...the oil cooler cover flap will drop fully horizontal covering the oil cooler entrance.

So to sum up....when you are in the wram up phase (flaps closed) the cylinder 1/2 side flap will be vertical and the 3/4 side will be full horizontal blocking the oil cooler entrance. Ray


thanks, in my country have a 75-95 f , and my interest is 100% open flaps all the time for max. cooler......wich position recomend me???
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No sir...please do not do that. Do not lock the flaps open.

75-95F is not outside of the range the flaps were designed to work with....not even close. In Texas where I used to live...105F is common in the summer. In cities with lots of concrete, ground air temperature is about 125-140F.

When it is over 85F outside, the flaps will open plenty quickly. Anything less then 85F...without flaps, the engine warms up way too slowly and contaminates the oil. This causes shorter engine life. Its worth it to have the flaps operable. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
No sir...please do not do that. Do not lock the flaps open.

75-95F is not outside of the range the flaps were designed to work with....not even close. In Texas where I used to live...105F is common in the summer. In cities with lots of concrete, ground air temperature is about 125-140F.

When it is over 85F outside, the flaps will open plenty quickly. Anything less then 85F...without flaps, the engine warms up way too slowly and contaminates the oil. This causes shorter engine life. Its worth it to have the flaps operable. Ray


my westfalia is only for summer use (vacation)......now with 100 open flaps still problems with oil temp.....run only 20 minutes to 80 f exterior and engine temp and 195 F ....need fiability for long travels....
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

195 degrees F is not Hot. 230-250 degrees F is Hot.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
195 degrees F is not Hot. 230-250 degrees F is Hot.


220 warning??
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
195 degrees F is not Hot. 230-250 degrees F is Hot.


220 warning??
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My V8 Dodge pickup runs at 210 degrees normal.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless it is 80 degrees Celsius (176 Fahrenheit) I think you need the flaps working. That is when they are fully open.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[/quote]

Also...if your flaps are set like they are in this picture...which is incorrect....your oil cooler will only get a "maintenance" or bare minimum level of airflow....because in this picture your flaps are 100% open on the 1/2 side and 100% closed on the 3/4 side because of the linkage issue I mentioned above.

Even when the oil cooler flap is closed during warm up....the flap is designed to flow a certain portion of air from the non visible hing side inside of the fan housing...so you can never be totally without oil cooler air.

As mentioned....195F for oil temperature is just about perfectly warmed up (185F is considered exactly warmed up).

Oil in the 225F range is hot....not terribly hot....but kind of the limit. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
[quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Also...if your flaps are set like they are in this picture...which is incorrect....your oil cooler will only get a "maintenance" or bare minimum level of airflow....because in this picture your flaps are 100% open on the 1/2 side and 100% closed on the 3/4 side because of the linkage issue I mentioned above.

Even when the oil cooler flap is closed during warm up....the flap is designed to flow a certain portion of air from the non visible hing side inside of the fan housing...so you can never be totally without oil cooler air.

As mentioned....195F for oil temperature is just about perfectly warmed up (185F is considered exactly warmed up).

Oil in the 225F range is hot....not terribly hot....but kind of the limit. Ray[/quote]

ok, today run in highway with 88 F exterior temp........20-50 psi cold engine oil pressure.......and hot:

70 km/h
2500 rpm
25 psi max oil pressure
230 F oil temp
20W/50 oil

After highway road to my house oil temp 240 F and oil pressure max 20 psi.
Considerer this raygreenwood, what is better cooler position flaps for summer??...Need make sure better cooler position flaps only for summer use.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you wanted to lock the flaps ...only for summer use...the oil cooler flap in your picture must be lifted about 1.5"...the other is fine and correct.

Either your oil cooler flap is bent where it attches to the cross bar (common)....or the small linkage part is installed backward.

240F is not horrible...but is about what you would expect if you are running the engine with the flaps like they are in your picture.

The oil cooler flap needs to be partially lifted...so it feed both the cylinders and the oil cooler with air. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
If you wanted to lock the flaps ...only for summer use...the oil cooler flap in your picture must be lifted about 1.5"...the other is fine and correct.

Either your oil cooler flap is bent where it attches to the cross bar (common)....or the small linkage part is installed backward.

240F is not horrible...but is about what you would expect if you are running the engine with the flaps like they are in your picture.

The oil cooler flap needs to be partially lifted...so it feed both the cylinders and the oil cooler with air. Ray

i buy my westfalia without thermosthat system....stock flaps position unknow for me....then the flap not completly close on the oil cooler??....1,5 " open??
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:04 am    Post subject: Cooling Flaps Reply with quote

Whoa!!! Those flaps are correct!

This is a commonly made mistake on Type 4 motors. No disrespect intended here.

The left flap is in the closed and default "HOT" position. The right flap is in the UP and default "HOT" position. Both are held in place by the shaft return spring in the "HOT" position to guarantee if the thermostat fails, the motor still is being cooled.

Here is an explanation of the left air flap.

In the "HOT" or "DEFAULT POSITION", Air flows UNDER the flap, pushing 100% of air volume needed to the oil cooler. Air also flows OVER the flap, pushing 100% of air volume needed to the cylinder heads.

When the thermostat lifts the left flap in the "COOL" position, LESS air is directed to the oil cooler & air is disrupted to the cylinder head, helping to warm the motor quickly. Leaving a "gap" by reversing the actuating bar would REDUCE air flow to the oil cooler and the head.

In fact the left cooling flap is perfectly contoured to the tin below it so it sits as flush as possible in the "HOT" position, pushing as much air as possible to the oil cooler. If it doesn't, check your linkage the small actuating bar from the shaft to the flap is installed with the "C" toward the center of the engine or to the "right".

Additionally, there is no need to do anything for "summer" driving. The flaps are already in the "HOT" position. Removing the flaps will kill your engine in only a few of miles, since no air would be pushed through the oil cooler from UNDER the flap.


Last edited by misterstiles on Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Cooling Flaps Reply with quote

misterstiles wrote:
Whoa!!! Those flaps are correct!

This is a commonly made mistake on Type 4 motors. No disrespect intended here.

The left flap is in the closed and default "HOT" position. The right flap is in the UP and default "HOT" position. Both are held in place by the shaft return spring in the "HOT" position to guarantee if the thermostat fails, the motor still is being cooled.

Here is an explanation of the left air flap.

In the "HOT" or "DEFAULT POSITION", Air flows UNDER the flap, pushing 100% of air volume needed to the oil cooler. Air also flows OVER the flap, pushing 100% of air volume needed to the cylinder heads.

When the thermostat lifts the left flap in the "COOL" position, LESS air is directed to the oil cooler & air is disrupted to the cylinder head, helping to warm the motor quickly. Leaving a "gap" by reversing the actuating bar would REDUCE air flow to the oil cooler and the head.

In fact the left cooling flap is perfectly contoured to the tin below it so it sits as flush as possible in the "HOT" position, pushing as much air as possible to the oil cooler. If it doesn't, check your linkage the small actuating bar from the shaft to the flap is installed with the "C" toward the center of the engine or to the "right".

Additionally, there is no need to do anything for "summer" driving. The flaps are already in the "HOT" position. Removing the flaps will kill your engine in only a few of miles, since no air would be pushed through the oil cooler from UNDER the flap.


then....definitly photo shows better cooler position flaps......the driver side flap down and join 100% with oil cooler tin!!
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: Cooling Flaps Reply with quote

misterstiles wrote:
Whoa!!! Those flaps are correct!

This is a commonly made mistake on Type 4 motors. No disrespect intended here.

The left flap is in the closed and default "HOT" position. The right flap is in the UP and default "HOT" position. Both are held in place by the shaft return spring in the "HOT" position to guarantee if the thermostat fails, the motor still is being cooled.

Here is an explanation of the left air flap.

In the "HOT" or "DEFAULT POSITION", Air flows UNDER the flap, pushing 100% of air volume needed to the oil cooler. Air also flows OVER the flap, pushing 100% of air volume needed to the cylinder heads.

When the thermostat lifts the left flap in the "COOL" position, LESS air is directed to the oil cooler & air is disrupted to the cylinder head, helping to warm the motor quickly. Leaving a "gap" by reversing the actuating bar would REDUCE air flow to the oil cooler and the head.

In fact the left cooling flap is perfectly contoured to the tin below it so it sits as flush as possible in the "HOT" position, pushing as much air as possible to the oil cooler. If it doesn't, check your linkage the small actuating bar from the shaft to the flap is installed with the "C" toward the center of the engine or to the "right".

Additionally, there is no need to do anything for "summer" driving. The flaps are already in the "HOT" position. Removing the flaps will kill your engine in only a few of miles, since no air would be pushed through the oil cooler from UNDER the flap.



No...I'm sorry. The description you just gave is the common mistake.

There is indeed a bare minimum air path always open to the oil cooler when the left hand flap is fully sealed as is shown in his picture. This is in fact the failsafe position that the system goes into when the oil cooler thermostat wire is broken or the thermostat fails.

This bare minimum slot forr air path is approximatley 12mm by about 4". It in no way supplys as much cooling air as is possible when the left hand flap is partially lifted.

This mistake is so common that the vast majority of theVW owners below what you just described is correct. It is not.
This happens because....when reinstalling the flaps after removal...the least difficult way to connect the small linkage joint on the flap....is backward. It will operate smoothly both ways....but is correct one way.

The oil cooler gets maximum cooling air ONLY when the left hand flap is partially lifted. What people forget is that cooling air is performed not just by directing by having a more open passage...but because it is under high static pressure (force) as it leaves the fan housing.

Because of this design....you are correct that the 3/4 cylinders get less perfect cooling air. This is why Jake Raby and others have found that by design, because of the flaps and the way they are set for correct maximum oil cooling...do in fact disrupt the air somehwat for the 3/4 cylinders.

The flaps in that photograph are in fact 100% incorrect. They will not destroy the engine because of the failsafe airslot and the fact that you do get bare minimum oil cooling. But...they will result in higher than perfect oil temps like he is getting.

On engines with higher performance levels Jake reccomended bypassing the stock cooler at one point and using an external one....and at the point he locks the oil cooler flap into the closed position like is shown in that picture...to get better head cooling and airflow to the 3/4 side.

The flaps in that picture are incorrect if proper factory oil cooling is what you are looking for. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: Cooling Flaps Reply with quote

ok...i buyed my westfalia without thermosthat and cable......one question...with thermosthat and cable install correctly and 100% hot position.....the 3-4 flap down up to 12mm before tin seat??...and the 1-2 flap down a little and direct air flow to cylinders??.

For install additional external oil cooler (72 or 96 mesa plate).....Now installed full flow HD 26 mm gears oil pump...change the flat oil pump cover for full flow cover but....where inside the the oil hose in type 4 engine??
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