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Please help- Bug won't start- really weird problem!
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Phantom440
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Please help- Bug won't start- really weird problem! Reply with quote

I've got a '69 Bug. The PO put the starter in with one bolt- it worked loose, chewed a hole in the side of the transmission. I got it shimmed into place, but since then, it takes longer and longer to start, unless I sit and let it idle to charge the battery back up.
Well yesterday, I was at my grandparents' house, and ready to come home. Turn the key, all I heard was a "clunk". I tried charging up the battery for an hour plus, same clunk.
My uncle offered to pull me in his truck so I could pop start it... two or three times when I'd let out the clutch, the back wheels would lock up and skid on the street, almost like I'd put it into reverse.
I tried this in first and second, both times the wheels would lock up and not even budge the motor.
My uncle thought perhaps I'd locked up the motor, but the oil level was fine and I drove it to my grandparents' house, no problem. How could it have run out of oil and seized the motor while parked overnight?
We took a wrench to the crank pulley nut, and the nut would spin, the pulley WOULD NOT.
The engine has great compression, the valves are always checked, the oil is checked... this is not a beater motor, I take good care of it... but I'm stumped.
Could anyone help me out???
Thanks,
Zack
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perrib
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pull the starter out part of it maybe jamming the flywheel to the bell housing.
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Cusser
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perrib wrote:
Pull the starter out part of it maybe jamming the flywheel to the bell housing.


I was thinkin' along similar lines. "Always fix first what you KNOW is bad"
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sturgeongeneral
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You probably ate the starter bushing and the starter is cocked, locking the engine in place. Try removing the starter and turning the engine by hand with the starter out.
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:02 am    Post subject: Re: Please help- Bug won't start- really weird problem! Reply with quote

Phantom440 wrote:
... it takes longer and longer to start, unless I sit and let it idle to charge the battery back up.

Bad battery. How old is it? Did you try swapping it with a known good one?

Agreed with the others... if you knew the starter wasn't mounted well... and now the motor doesn't turn... that's probably a good place to look.

If it really was the problem... it may have caused other issues.... you applied the full weight of the rolling car against the flywheel and the starter. Expect that something else may have broken (like teeth off the flywheel or starter?)
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perrib
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You pull the starter yet. It is a 15 minute job or is it that pulling the engine?. Smile
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dasleftcoaster
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so what was the problem / fix?

I hate it when people post up a problem .. get lots of free input.. and never post up the results!
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Phantom440
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dasleftcoaster wrote:
so what was the problem / fix?

I hate it when people post up a problem .. get lots of free input.. and never post up the results!


Guys. You drive Beetles so you should know some patience... Wink
Since I don't have a car I have to wait for someone to drive me back to my grandparents... I'll probably be able to get up there tomorrow...
I'll let you know how it turns out.
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Ruffturn
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sturgeongeneral wrote:
You probably ate the starter bushing and the starter is cocked, locking the engine in place. Try removing the starter and turning the engine by hand with the starter out.


+1, but make sure the key is off when you try to hand turn it over. You don't need it firing up with your fingers on the pulleys & the belt.

I think it's real important here to make sure that the engine turns over by hand. I'm thinking that if the starter wedged into the flywheel, you'd bust something or drive it loose when you dumped the clutch during the pull start attempt. I've got a nasty feeling that your engine is seized. Shocked

The reason is, I've seen folks replace countless batteries & starters because the engine was locked up. Kinda hard to tell a customer that 1st) they need a battery then 2nd) they need a starter, then after they've incurred all of that expense tell them that their motor is shot. Sad
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Phantom440
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay- I got up there today, disconnected battery, jacked it up, crawled under, and took the bottom nut off of the starter... couldn't figure out exactly how to get the top nut off (any suggestions?), but managed to move the starter enough the pulleys would turn by hand...
Battery cable back on, starter nut back on, car back down, I tried to crank it, and it'd crank (no clunk this time), to a point but then the pulleys would stop again, back to clunk. Fair enough.
This time I didn't try to push start it, just wiggled the pulleys till free, then tried cranking again... and it fired up...
I drove it home, not a single problem (I was sure
my luck I'd have broken teeth off the flywheel... but I lucked out).
It's in my driveway now and I can see about getting a proper fix.
So, relative newbie questions...
1. The PO (or the PPO) installed an oil filter/cooler setup. Now in my engine bay, where the distributor coil was, I have a regular spin-on oil filter. This runs back to an oil cooler next to (but not covering) the air intake for the fan.
I couldn't tell, but when the mechanic put the shims on the starter, he tells me one of these oil lines are interfering with the starter bolts, and that's why the PO only put one of them in.
Is there another routing for this type of oil cooler/filter deal, or...?
2. How do you get that top nut off the starter? I had a flashlight, a mirror, a socket and wrench, and tried an open end wrench, but the nut was too close to the starter itself to get a socket on, and the open end was trapped between the accel cable and the underside of the car- it'd wiggle, but not enough to break the nut loose...
3. What's a good price for an IRS transmission? I've seen Craigslist ads for $50 to fully rebuilt and cleaned up practically new ones on epay for like $700...

Thanks so much for all your help, guys... If not for pointing my head in the right direction I'd be positive I'd seized the motor or something...
This should be a pay site so you guys could get paid for helping the new kids out... Wink
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perrib
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chances are it is not the transaxle. Remove the fan housing and pull all that crap they put on the engine and go back to a stock doghouse oil cooler. Used German tin not the junk aftermarket stuff. The nut you can not find for he upper starter bolt is hidden by that oil overheater that is bolted to the shroud. Pull the engine and remove the broken stuff. Worse case is you will need a self supporting starter for an auto stick Bug.
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Phantom440
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the mechanic put the shims on for the starter, he said the starter gear had worked loose and chewed the hole open wider where the starter goes through the bellhousing. It's a tight fit in there to look around so I took his word for it... I know, taking a mechanic's word is sometimes iffy, but that explained a lot (like the starter whirring but not starting the car)...
Do you think I'll be okay with my current transaxle, or does this sound plausible?
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perrib
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perrib wrote:
Chances are it is not the transaxle. Worse case is you will need a self supporting starter for an auto stick Bug.


While not worded well I meant you can use a self supporting starter to bypass the damaged front bushing in ther standard transaxle. I don't get the shim part since VW never used starter shims.
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Phantom440
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, when he told me what he did I felt it was kind of an... interesting solution. Since the starter was only put in with one bolt (previous owner), it slowly worked loose with every start, to the point the gear would chew at the bellhousing. I didn't know this or think anything was wrong until when starting, the starter would spin, but had no effect on the motor. He "shimmed" the starter back into its place against the flywheel, then tightened the bolts down to "keep it straight".
I don't really get it, either... hopefully this'll give you a better idea what I'm trying to work with. Wink
I feel like I'm chasing ghosts with this car from all the hamheaded previous owners and their mechanics... every fix, every weekend spent working on it, every tow and mechanic bill, I try to do it right and hope this is it and I'll finally have the "reliable Bug"... but does that day ever come? I feel like I could do a total nut and bolt restoration on this thing and it'll still konk out on me...
not to change the subject... I'm just tired of getting the "sell that junk" lectures...
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perrib
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once you get it back to VW standards it becomes reliable. A one bolt starter won't cut it.
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phantom440 wrote:
When the mechanic put the shims on for the starter...

What "shims"? Are you talking about the brass bushing in the tranny case that the nose of the starter gear fits into?

I hope you are not talking about spacers between the starter and the case?!


I was thinking one possible solution for your case would be to convert one or both of your top engine bolts to the doghouse style bolt which has a pressed in treaded insert on the engine side and bolts are used from the tranny side. You wouldn't need to hold the nut on the engine side since the threaded inserts don't move. You might need to modify your starter so you could tighten the bolt from the tranny side (grind off the surface where the keyed bolt goes. Just a thought.
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'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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