Swepco 201 in Syncro trans

[Californio]

hey folks

I am having some trouble with my Syncro trans, hard to change gears, scratching when shifting. This is on a 40K miles rebuild that apparently was running redline at the beginning (PO invoices.) I put in GL4 about 5k miles ago, then Swepco 201 a couple days ago. Questions:
1. If the Swepco is going to do any good (probably not), how long would it take to notice?
2. Any possibility the linkage could be responsible for hard shifting/scratching? The
bushings along the shift rod are worn enough that I can put thin gauge aluminum flashing between the bushing and rod (tried that to alleviate play.)
3. How long before next rebuild time given these symptoms? No noise from trans, no real crap that came out in the lube change,, nothing on the magnet.
4. The trans was rebuilt by PO and I haven't approached the rebuilder installer yet. I doubt if either one is going to want to deal with it yet but what would you do, forget it and pay or raise the issue with them? Seems 40K miles is a bit short yes?

thanks guys--

[Wildthings]

40K is a bit young to be having problems. My Syncro wouldn't hardly shift when I bought it years ago with about 140K on the odometer. Tried several different oils to no avail. Finally decided WTF and filled it with ATF. Ran that way for about 70-100K miles when I switched to running 5W-30 synthetic motor oil in it. Or maybe it was 0W-30 synthetic. I changed the oil fairly frequently when using either oil, and never saw any abnormal amount of filings on the drain plug magnet.

The tranny was still going okay at just shy of 300K when the engine got an internal coolant leak and the van was parked. I will have the tranny rebuilt before I ever put it on the road again, but am not expecting to see much of any additional wear because of running these oils.

These days you can get GL-4 rated ATF's and a 5W-30 synthetic motor oil may well meet GL-4 specs as well, something like a 5W-50 certainly will.

[randywebb]

1. Swepco 201 is commonly used in tranny's with Porsche type synchronizers. It has a high quality additive package that is xlnt for that type design. In 1987, Porsche went with the Borg-Warner type syncros and Swepco 201 is not the best for those.

no idea what VW used in your van

if 201 was going to fix anything, it would be almost immediately apparent


- Fix the bushings & linkage -- see if those easy, low cost things do the job, if not, it sounds like they need to be done anyway
_________________
1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.

[gears]

Wildthings, I think you must be the luckiest man alive to have this sort of luck with the fluid you're using. Let's go to Vegas together.

Cal, you are judging oils as most laymen do, by the way the transmission shifts, and nothing else. That's to be expected ... we all like a smooth shifting transmission. The truth is that just about any synthetic gear lube will provide smoother shifting than just about any dino oil (especially in cold weather). But it's the EP (extreme pressure) protection provided by Swepco that made it so popular among the early turbo Porsche race teams. Swepco isn't the only good gear oil around, but rather it's coasting on the good reputation that it deservedly earned many years ago.

All that said, it's more likely clutch or linkage that's behind your shifting issue.

[WSideWitneSS]

Swepco has a great reputation and I recently put 201 in the tranny of my 325iX which shifts well but not great. I hoped it would make it shift like butter, but I didn't notice a single bit of difference. It does give me some peace of mind though.
_________________
'87 Syncro Westy
'91 BMW 325iX - SOLD!
'02 Subaru WRX Wagon

[Californio]

gears, good point about the criterion I'm using. Shifting isn't everything. The other stuff is hard to quantify though.

Yes I will do the bushings, easy and they need to be done.

The PO told me that the Bay Area shop that installed the trans forgot to put lube in it when they delivered it and so had to pull it and do it again. I am wondering how good a job they did when they "did it again." 40K isn't long. At least I know I have the 3-4 shift hub replaced.

Good know also that the results if any would be immediate. Sounds right.

[gears]

OMG ... how many miles did it run without oil? That is a major oversight, and may lead to serious issues in the future. Still ... probably not shifting issues.

[SyncroGhia]

The difference should be immediate (or close to).

I'd be phoning up the guy that rebuilt it and asking him to have a look at just 40k on a stock van.

The trans in Limey lasted about 34K before I needed to pull it to pieces but I am putting 150bhp and 260ftlbs through it and I don't drive it nicely

MG
_________________
T3 Syncro 16 S6 Westfalia Limey SOLD
T3 Syncro 6x6 SOLD
T3 RS6 Bluestar
T3 Tristar Syncro 16 SOLD
T3 Tristar Syncro RHD SOLD

[Californio]

Here's the deal with the rebuilder/installer. First, I didn't pay for the work, the PO did (actually two PO's ago.) Second, the installer isn't the same as the rebuilder; it was sent from Berkeley to Oregon for the rebuild. Third, the business about the oil being left out is hearsay from the PO and I could never prove it. I just happened to meet him on the street one day as he recognized the van and said Hi.

I'd be willing to bet that once the installers realized they'd let him run it without oil, they either just filled it back up and sent him on his way (if it shifted, how would he know?) or did a minimal amount of work to repair whatever needed repaired. I don't see any other way to explain the scratching at 40K miles.

Sheesh.

[scobax]

You have to replace the linkage wear parts and work on getting the linkage aligned correctly before assuming it's a "bad" transmission.

The shifter mechanism is a notorious PITA to get just right and you have to start with known good wear parts. There are several threads here about this very thing. The tranny will grind if the alignment is off just a little. The pattern will seem "notchy" if your linkage parts are worn. And vice versa.

After you drop the coin for the shifter linkage parts, theres an adjustment on both ends. It can take many many tries to get it right. Give it a dozen or so tries before you start calling people. You probably won't have to after all.

I would definately eliminate the linkage from the possibilities before going into the transmission too, especially with the history of these linkages being so troublesome. Assuring that the shifter is correct is the first step. A perfect transmission won't shift worth crap with bad shifter parts or bad shifter alignment.

I just finally got mine adjusted correctly after a couple of years of tweaking the shifter linkage once and a while to get rid of some notchy shifting and occasional 1-2 grinding. The front and rear linkage bits are "new". I was starting to think that I just had bad synchros in the tranny, but it was all just in the linkage adjustment. It took forever to get it right. It is as smooth as it can be now, and I can't make it grind if I try.

BTW, the rebuilder in question doesn't ship them full, that's the installer's job.
_________________
87 Syncro Westy w/ Suby 2.5
RIP: 2.1 WBX. You were a good dog 'ol feller

“The word adventure has gotten overused. For me, when everything goes wrong, that's when adventure starts” -Yvon Chouinard

"It's not expensive, its priceless" -Unknown

[SyncroGhia]

Interesting re when it was rebuilt with owners etc. I'd expect you wouldn't have any comeback from the builder as that would be only with regard to the person who paid for the rebuild.

Re running without oil. A friend of mine who rebuilds vanagon transmissions for a living recently had an owner make the mistake of not filling up the trans with oil despite it being marked up as such. He got no more than 11 miles before it siezed and he couldn't change gear. The trans was a write-off.

MG
_________________
T3 Syncro 16 S6 Westfalia Limey SOLD
T3 Syncro 6x6 SOLD
T3 RS6 Bluestar
T3 Tristar Syncro 16 SOLD
T3 Tristar Syncro RHD SOLD

[insyncro]

Running a transmission without fluid will impact it immediately.
Swepco is good stuff, but if internals are heavily worn or cracked it is not going to change a thing.
I use it for the "feel" of the shifting.
It is much different in "feel" than RedLine or other synthetics.

Check all the linkage and shifter column parts for wear and replace all bushings if a known good trans won't shift properly.
Adjusting the linkage is not difficult.
Be sure to mark all splines before you move anything.
This way you have a baseline and can put it back if needed.

[gears]

[Californio]

What I'm hearing is a pretty solid consensus of "do the linkage bushing, adjust the linkage, etc.," before suspecting the trans. And it doesn't seem as though it could realistically have been run without oil and sent back with no rebuild. So maybe I'm jumping to conclusions--what the Sheesh comment is about...

Thanks for the excellent input guys--that's what this forum is about. I'm going to order those bushings post haste and have at it. Will update...

[damagd]

Going to remove my gear oil and replace with Swepco 201. Can only buy it by the gallon it seems, and capacity looks like it'll be over a gallon once all oil is removed. What would be an acceptable gear oil that I can buy by the quart that would mix well with the 201?

[Sodo]

Be careful choosing oil that is so expensive that you're inclined to keep it running after it's contaminated.
You will get (by far) the biggest bang for the buck with clean oil, so choose a quality oil that you will happily dump every 10 or 15,000 miles.

If you have a big engine, go more for the 10k.
If your magnet is coming out clean, you can logically extend the interval.
It's wiser to start low, and let your magnet cleanliness indicate that your gearbox condition and driving style allow longer intervals.

Any Dino gear oil can be mixed in.
You need about 1/2 quart (...if that).

If you don't tip the nose up, there will be about a quart of dirty oil remaining up front in the low gear housing
and you will be mixing Swepco with that,
and you'll have a little Swepco left over.

Do your front gearbox too. If the VC leaks, the oil will turn black and start ruining your bearings and front Ring&Pinion.
Front Ring&Pinions are no longer available.
Keep the front gearbox oil fresh.

The Bentley has every detail you need to rebuild your gearboxes (front and rear) but not one word on how to change the oil.
You thought you just 'missed it', right?
Nope. It's omitted entirely - a dirty little secret for ~40 years.
That....apparently.... Sodo discovered around 2016 when he got a "searchable .pdf" of the Bentley.

I've tried to "out" the procedure HERE: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=2302246
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Californio]

Update after 14 years (!)

Same trans is still in the van, basically the same shifting pattern as I described--scratches in shifting and downshifting but no terrible noises or anything. I baby this thing, not hard with my mild-mannered Tiico.

Over the years I've had the gear oil changed a few times, not with Swepco but with whatever the shop had. Since I don't have a lift, I've gotten to the point where I just have a shop do it, one of those "life is too short" kinda things.

The van has now 447,xxx miles, the trans about 190xxx.

I guess somebody did a good rebuild. It was installed by Buslab so possibly Ron's Transaxles in Richmond, but I'm not sure.

Takeaway for me is that the brand, etc. of the oil isn't all that important. Just keep changing it as best you can, shift slowly to avoid the scratching, baby it. Worked for me.
_________________
1987 Syncro Westy/2.0L Tiico

[dobryan]

[Sodo]

Swepco was a classic Dino holdout - I think they created 202 in ~2016?
When I talked to them in 2016 about our Van problem (big engine, little tranny) they said to for the best protection I should use 210 (but it's thick). And he said 201 should be good too but 210 gives the most protection.

He did not bring up 202 until I asked him if synthetic was better than Dino. Which he said synthetic's primary contribution was where temperatures exceed 220°F (like racing).
Everyone should know that the Vanagon trans starts damaging itself at ~180°F
but we don't go there.

Anyway, I'm a Dino guy for Vanagon gearboxes. And so is Mat Steedle, BTW. Another holdout.
Who knows? I'm certainly no oil expert.
Likely any oil can be used in a gentle driven van, original WBX etc.

=======

Totally logical that the more protective oils would be harder to shift.
And certainly while the gear oil is stone-cold.
The synchronizer can't spin up the gears quickly if the oil is real slippery.
It takes more time than you're allowing it.

But the bearings and gears are happier, more cushioned.

It's good to understand that you can't get both "easy shifting" and "gear-protection" from one oil type.

If you want your gearbox to last long, use thick oil.
If easy shifting increases your smile factor, get thin oil.
And for the best longevity your chosen oil can offer, keep it clean.

If you have a big engine in the rear, and thin oil in the gearbox, prob best to adopt a "slow & easy" driving style (on that too-small gearbox).
And advisable with thick oil too. (there's no free lunch but one may cost a little less )

It's not "only money" because replacement parts are drying up.
We don't know if there will be parts available (or experienced rebuilders) in 10 years.

Anyway, just things to keep in mind - especially for those (Many !) who've hung a big engine on this little gearbox.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Wildthings]

Once a gear box has been run with a standard GL-5 oil in it, there is no going back to good shifting without replacing the synchros, just going to Swepco isn't going to do it. I am not an aggressive driver, but have no qualms about down shifting my 091-1 tranny in my 83 1/2 from 4th to 3rd at 50 mph and my wife uses higher shift points when down shifting than she does on up shifting and she downshifts through all the gears when slowing down every time, grrr. She will down shift into 2nd or 1st at speeds I find to be ridiculously high. This is a used box we but in back in circa 2009 that shifted well when we got it and has run only GL-4 in the 100k+/- miles since.

Swepco is fine if your box is shifting well, but it isn't likely to help anything if the synchros have already be damaged by a standard GL-5, I have been down that costly path to no avail.