Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
2WD Lift Finished
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ddonnell
Samba Member


Joined: September 04, 2007
Posts: 373
Location: Sunset Beach
ddonnell is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:00 pm    Post subject: 2WD Lift Finished Reply with quote

Well about 7 months ago now, I started to begin the process of lifting my insanely low 2WD Carat. I looked into ALL the options, believe me. GoWesty, Syncro.org, Van-Cafe, etc, etc. I had a budget and wanted to get as reasonably high as I could within my budget. I ended up going with the Moog 5658's. Now for those with nose-high 1985 Westy's these are basically stock front springs, but for me with a Carat, these were quite the lift! I also got a more aggressive tread tire (Nexen 195R14LT). I also put Monroe shocks on all four corners. The Monroes alone lifted the van 1/4" on all corners! I was planning on doing the cutting board spacers for the rear, but my dad was skeptical about it, so I ended up having to get the AirLift airbags to assist the rear. The springs installed and the AirLifts installed (and inflated to the manufacturer's MAX of 25psi), I was sitting really nose high. I drove around like this for about 6 months (had surgery and was out for 4 of them). Last month I purchased some rear springs off of a Westy. After reading up these springs would get me close, but no cigar. With the AirLifts in they would be perfect. So now here I am posting before and after pics and hoping I didn't bore you all to death. ...Also so we don't have to explain to repeat questions, I'll just post this thread with all the links that helped me at the bottom.

Pre-Lift Ride Height:
LF-15 1/2"
RF-15 1/4"
LR-15 1/2"
RR-15 3/8"

Post-Lift Ride Height-
LF-17 1/8"
RF-17"
LR-17 1/2"
RR-17 1/4"


Should have taken them in the same area, but this is what I could scrounge together...

Before:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Fronts installed w/ AirLifts: (note the distance between top of the tire and fender)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Totally done:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's a clip that was taken last time I went hiking. There was a pretty steep, extremely rutted out road that led to the day-use parking area. The video doesn't do the washed out road justice though Confused

Link



SAMBA LINKS:
Moog 5662: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426899
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=380912&highlight=rear+spring+spacer
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=421347&start=0
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=360585
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1...p;start=20
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=321336&highlight=swap
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=105142
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=361419
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=273255&highlight=


VENDOR LINKS:
http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=4202&category_id=&category_parent_id=
http://www.amazon.com/Moog-5658-Constant-Rate-Spring/dp/B000C59U7W
http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_1236_1335/hr_2wd_lift_springs.html

Big thanks to those who directly/indirectly helped me along the way! Mightyart, Allsierra, Loogy, r39o, 1621, Presslab, Alaric.H, and PDXWesty especially!
_________________
1990 Vanagon Carat-SOLD
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 V10
1966 Baja "The Beast"

instagram #bajabugproject


Last edited by ddonnell on Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:04 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Classifieds Feedback
Volksaholic
Samba Member


Joined: December 26, 2005
Posts: 1771
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
Volksaholic is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this with all the link research included! This is one of those on-the-list-but-down-the-road project for my Wolfsburg. It's still got more clearance that, say, a Dodge Caravan, by I like the stance of the older vans better and I tend to take my vans on roads they really have no business on. Another 1" or so would be nice, then when I wear the treads off my tires I'll consider taller wheels & a brake upgrade.

Paul
_________________
1988 Wolfsburg Edition, 2001 Subaru EJ251
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
presslab
Samba Member


Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
presslab is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking good! I'm glad I was able to help you out with the Moog info and my old rear springs. Nobody seems to want my Syncro.org front springs I have for sale, now that the Moogs are known... I think I screwed myself over on that one. Laughing
_________________
1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
foodeater
Samba Member


Joined: July 13, 2007
Posts: 1293
Location: Newburgh, NY
foodeater is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you still have the Carat springs? I'm looking for a set.
_________________
89 Bluestar-2.5 Subaru Powered

'84 Westy Tiico-daily driver-sold
'82 Caddy diesel-sold
'87 Vanagon Syncro-RIP
'81 diesel rabbit-sold
'82 Vanagon auto-RIP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
tozovr
Samba Member


Joined: June 03, 2009
Posts: 547
Location: York, ME
tozovr is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless they include a helper spring (Air or coil), shock absorbers will not, ever, lift your vehicle.

Handle a shock absorber off of the vehicle...you can usually compress it by hand. "Shocks" is just the accepted nomenclature for a Damper. they dampen spring movement.
_________________
...like a young Julie Andrews all whacked out on PCP, kinda fun but kinda scary too

'83 1.6TD
DX 5 Speed
"Whistler"
www.sinisterbikes.com


Last edited by tozovr on Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
CessnaJon
Samba Member


Joined: August 15, 2008
Posts: 501
Location: Senoia,GA
CessnaJon is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That looks great! what is the overall lift for front and rear?
_________________
1973 Westy (shared birthday)
1990 Westy Multivan
1998 Diamond DA20
2015 Sportwagon TDI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ddonnell
Samba Member


Joined: September 04, 2007
Posts: 373
Location: Sunset Beach
ddonnell is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CessnaJon wrote:
That looks great! what is the overall lift for front and rear?


I think I achieved about 1.5-1.75" all around. Makes a huge difference in the way it looks and handles offroad!

presslab wrote:
Looking good! I'm glad I was able to help you out with the Moog info and my old rear springs. Nobody seems to want my Syncro.org front springs I have for sale, now that the Moogs are known... I think I screwed myself over on that one. Laughing


Pretty much the same spring if I remember but a helluva lot cheaper!

foodeater wrote:
Do you still have the Carat springs? I'm looking for a set.


I am currently in process of selling the springs as we speak, the fronts went MIA in the shop that I had the springs installed in, but I did get a free alignment out of the deal! Laughing And an alignment is more expensive than what I would have sold the springs for anyways!

tozovr wrote:
Unless they include a helper spring (Air or coil), shock absorbers will not, ever, lift your vehicle.

Handle a shock absorber off of the vehicle...you can usually compress it by hand. "Shocks" is just the accepted nomenclature for a Damper. they dampen spring movement.


Hmmm.. Confused Maybe it didn't... I see your point however my old ones had NO rebound left in them. Going down the road, the rear was flying all over the place.

Thanks for all the compliments guys!
_________________
1990 Vanagon Carat-SOLD
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 V10
1966 Baja "The Beast"

instagram #bajabugproject
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Classifieds Feedback
presslab
Samba Member


Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
presslab is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tozovr wrote:
Unless they include a helper spring (Air or coil), shock absorbers will not, ever, lift your vehicle.

Handle a shock absorber off of the vehicle...you can usually compress it by hand. "Shocks" is just the accepted nomenclature for a Damper. they dampen spring movement.


I'm guessing that those Monroes are gas (nitrogen) charged, so in effect they have an internal air spring. The gas charge is to reduce cavitation as the oil moves through the ports in the damper. These shocks are higher performance than non-charged ones, but once the shock wears and the gas charge is gone, the damping goes to crap. A non-charged shock won't have this problem, but most shocks these days are charged.

My guess is that they exert about 50 lbs of force. The 5658's spring rate is 579 lbs/in so that means that the shock would raise the vehicle about a 0.08" in the front. Stock rear springs are somewhere around 380 lbs/in so that would net 0.15".

Other shocks, like the Koni reds, are not gas charged.
_________________
1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
tozovr
Samba Member


Joined: June 03, 2009
Posts: 547
Location: York, ME
tozovr is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

presslab wrote:
tozovr wrote:
Unless they include a helper spring (Air or coil), shock absorbers will not, ever, lift your vehicle.

Handle a shock absorber off of the vehicle...you can usually compress it by hand. "Shocks" is just the accepted nomenclature for a Damper. they dampen spring movement.


I'm guessing that those Monroes are gas (nitrogen) charged, so in effect they have an internal air spring. The gas charge is to reduce cavitation as the oil moves through the ports in the damper. These shocks are higher performance than non-charged ones, but once the shock wears and the gas charge is gone, the damping goes to crap. A non-charged shock won't have this problem, but most shocks these days are charged.

My guess is that they exert about 50 lbs of force. The 5658's spring rate is 579 lbs/in so that means that the shock would raise the vehicle about a 0.08" in the front. Stock rear springs are somewhere around 380 lbs/in so that would net 0.15".

Other shocks, like the Koni reds, are not gas charged.


A gas charged shock won't raise a vehicle unless the charge is significant. You can still compress a gas charged shock by hand. 50 PSI of "charge" in a gas shock could really be anything. You have leverage ratios of suspension to consider etc etc.

Remember a shock isn't just there to push up. It dampens motion up AND down. Push a shock in and it initially may be stiff because of a gas charge, but you can maintain a desired compression height with very little effort. Likely any lift someone initially sees from installing new shocks of any kind (sans helper) is from unloading the suspension and taking the measurement before cycling it through with a load.
_________________
...like a young Julie Andrews all whacked out on PCP, kinda fun but kinda scary too

'83 1.6TD
DX 5 Speed
"Whistler"
www.sinisterbikes.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
CessnaJon
Samba Member


Joined: August 15, 2008
Posts: 501
Location: Senoia,GA
CessnaJon is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So just to confirm:The moog springs fit all 4 corners?Same part #?Does it ride like a Vanagon should? I would like more clearance for my MV but don't want to sacrifice handling or ride quality.
_________________
1973 Westy (shared birthday)
1990 Westy Multivan
1998 Diamond DA20
2015 Sportwagon TDI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ddonnell
Samba Member


Joined: September 04, 2007
Posts: 373
Location: Sunset Beach
ddonnell is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CessnaJon wrote:
So just to confirm:The moog springs fit all 4 corners?Same part #?Does it ride like a Vanagon should? I would like more clearance for my MV but don't want to sacrifice handling or ride quality.


NO! The moogs are JUST for the front. I had to get Westy rear springs to raise mine. There are a few people that have played around with alternative rear springs (first to come to mind is Alaric.H). The only off the shelf product for rears is the GW springs. That is why people have done the PU spacers/AirLifts/etc...

And anytime you want clearance, you lose handling and ride quality. The van gets top heavy. It was a trip the first time I got into my van after having the fronts done! The ride is completely different (mind you I went from a Carat to a nose-high westy..)
_________________
1990 Vanagon Carat-SOLD
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 V10
1966 Baja "The Beast"

instagram #bajabugproject
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Classifieds Feedback
ddonnell
Samba Member


Joined: September 04, 2007
Posts: 373
Location: Sunset Beach
ddonnell is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=380912

Thats for the spacers some use for the rear
_________________
1990 Vanagon Carat-SOLD
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 V10
1966 Baja "The Beast"

instagram #bajabugproject
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Classifieds Feedback
CTB
Samba Member


Joined: July 19, 2010
Posts: 152

CTB is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's funny is yours now looks remarkably similar in ride height (esp the rear) to mine as it is now. Smile

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Good preview of things to come, eh Davis? Cool Looks like a good change for off-roading for you. Your van looks like it's in great shape.
_________________
CTB
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
tozovr
Samba Member


Joined: June 03, 2009
Posts: 547
Location: York, ME
tozovr is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTB wrote:
What's funny is yours now looks remarkably similar in ride height (esp the rear) to mine as it is now. Smile

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Good preview of things to come, eh Davis? Cool Looks like a good change for off-roading for you. Your van looks like it's in great shape.


Gosh, what a nasty color scheme that is Wink
Laughing

Both of you have great looking rigs!

Here's mine so you know I'm joking about the nasty color Smile
http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww230/sinister29er/ringo/_MG_1215_7D_MAY2010_RJ-Liam-Van.jpg
_________________
...like a young Julie Andrews all whacked out on PCP, kinda fun but kinda scary too

'83 1.6TD
DX 5 Speed
"Whistler"
www.sinisterbikes.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
ddonnell
Samba Member


Joined: September 04, 2007
Posts: 373
Location: Sunset Beach
ddonnell is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTB wrote:
What's funny is yours now looks remarkably similar in ride height (esp the rear) to mine as it is now. Smile

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Good preview of things to come, eh Davis? Cool Looks like a good change for off-roading for you. Your van looks like it's in great shape.


Cool Lookin good!

Man that is really really close! I wish I didn't have the side moldings though. IMHO it makes it look too 'showy'. I want a road beast Very Happy
_________________
1990 Vanagon Carat-SOLD
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 V10
1966 Baja "The Beast"

instagram #bajabugproject
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Classifieds Feedback
snoop
Samba Member


Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 301
Location: SW Oregon
snoop is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice job dd...Dewey looks great! Please measure the distance from hub center to fender lip on each corner and let us know what you find. Please also keep an eye on those measures as time passes...the degree to which things change is good info to share too.

Much thanks.

Mike
_________________
87 Westy Camper
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ddonnell
Samba Member


Joined: September 04, 2007
Posts: 373
Location: Sunset Beach
ddonnell is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike- In the morning I'll find all of the original data that I came up with and post it in the first post. I know the fronts settled 1/8" between the time that I had them installed and the time I had the rears installed, but I expected that. (in fact I was expecting more!) And between installs there was over 4,000 miles put on and plenty of off-road miles. (over 100)
_________________
1990 Vanagon Carat-SOLD
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 V10
1966 Baja "The Beast"

instagram #bajabugproject
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Classifieds Feedback
presslab
Samba Member


Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
presslab is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tozovr wrote:

A gas charged shock won't raise a vehicle unless the charge is significant. You can still compress a gas charged shock by hand. 50 PSI of "charge" in a gas shock could really be anything. You have leverage ratios of suspension to consider etc etc.


I didn't say 50 PSI (would really be more like 100-400 PSI) but 50 pounds of force. That's a good point about the leverage ratio - in the front it may be more like 0.1" of ride height and 0.08" of shock travel. I did measure the leverage ratios at one point but I forget the exact numbers.

Quote:

Push a shock in and it initially may be stiff because of a gas charge, but you can maintain a desired compression height with very little effort.


There is a bit of stiction, yes, but my point is that it will raise the average height of the vehicle. Not a huge amount as I mentioned but it's not nothing.
_________________
1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
presslab
Samba Member


Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
presslab is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ddonnell wrote:
And anytime you want clearance, you lose handling and ride quality. The van gets top heavy. It was a trip the first time I got into my van after having the fronts done! The ride is completely different (mind you I went from a Carat to a nose-high westy..)


So do you think you lost handling? Raising the van up changed the roll center, not really good, but the springs are probably a bit stiffer.

I have aftermarket f/r sways on mine, 5660s, and Firestone bags in the rear, and I think it handles pretty good. Doesn't feel like a sports car but it can still take those corners! My buddy always thinks the van's gonna flip over when he rides with me. Laughing
_________________
1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
tozovr
Samba Member


Joined: June 03, 2009
Posts: 547
Location: York, ME
tozovr is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

presslab wrote:


I have aftermarket f/r sways on mine,

I have the Addco big bars front and rear...isn't it GREAT!? That combined with the Koni Reds and the van really does handle damn well.
_________________
...like a young Julie Andrews all whacked out on PCP, kinda fun but kinda scary too

'83 1.6TD
DX 5 Speed
"Whistler"
www.sinisterbikes.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB