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Themasterof42 Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2009 Posts: 327 Location: goleta
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:23 am Post subject: Help! Got a 1200cc Engine - Need information and advice |
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Hey guys! I recently got my hands on what appears to be a 1200cc Longblock for a 61 bug (I compared the engine number to those listed on the How to Keep Your VW Alive Book and according to that it would be between Dec 61 and 62). I've been doing as much research as I can just trying to figure out more about this thing. I've been using the search extensively but I decided a posting would be a tad bit more simple as I am in need of a lot of information. Hopefully I will get some useful feedback. I'll try to throw a picture or two up when I get a chance.
Anyways, the engine is almost completely lacking in accessories besides an oil cooler coming out of the top of the case and a standard muffler. I was told it was bought new many years ago and never fired. The price was right so I snatched it. The heads are single port and have no carbon build up or anything from what I can tell. I popped the valve covers off and everything looks spotless from what I can tell (I'm a college kid and have had vw's for about a year and a half so I'm still learning...please go easy on me!). Engine turns over freely and seems to have compression. I saw no stamping or anything on the heads but the block, valve covers, oil cooler, and other accessories have the vw stamping on them. On the left hand side there is a circular piece of metal that says "guarantee, void if removed." On one of the heads "46" is written on with sharpie. From what I can tell the case does not appear to be split and there is no X after the engine number (I think I read that this would indicate a factory rebuild). The stamping under where the generator stand should be appears to be original as well (think I read that sometimes re-builders re-stamp them or something) Beyond that, this engine is a mystery to me.
So, is there anything else I can look for to help understand what I'm dealing with? Please let me know!
Now, I have another series of questions. If everything checks out, I plan to locate a cheap bug (probably 69 and up for IRS, Price, and safety) to throw this into to make my daily commute to college a little cheaper next semester (I currently have a 77 bus. 40+ miles a day gets real expensive real quick on a college budget). I realize a 40hp engine is going to be slow but that's not that much of a problem for me. So, what exactly do I need to get this thing running. I'm unfamiliar with bugs so bear with me. Here's a list of parts I've thrown together with retailers and prices. Any suggestions would be excellent! (I am in the brainstorming stage of this project so I'm trying to get an appropriate cost estimate) I'm sure I've left stuff out so please chime in!
Airheadparts.com (local retailer)
Fuel Pump 26.50
Gaskets 0.70
Alternator Conversion Kit w/stand and pulley 147.95 (engine would likely go into 12v car)
Distributor Mechanical Advance (Canno) 56.95
Fuel Filter 1.50
Pressure Plate 180mm 49.95
Spring Kit 6.95
Clutch disc 180mm (spring or rigid? what's better?) 19.95
Release Bearing 40.15
oil pressure sender
Busdepot.com
Spark Plugs 7.00
Coil 12v 23.23
Samba Classified (with estimated pricing)
40hp Intake Manifold 25.00'ish
Oil Filler 20'ish
Oil Bath/Air Cleaner 50'ish
Good Rebuilt Carb: Heard a properly rebuilt German Solex 28pict1 carb was the way to go. Is this the general consensus? About what kind of price should I expect to pay for this? 150'ish? Am I way off?
6 volt starter: Probably will purchase from airheads. Heard 6v will work even for 12v conversion if it isn't overused. Is this the way to go? Remember this is a 61 engine so my understanding is that the gearing on a 12 volt won't work. Is that correct?
Final Questions:
What Kind of tin would I need? I've heard mention of the doghouse system. What's the way to go?
What kind of crank (think that's the correct terminology) do I need to go with (you know, front of the engine...connects to the generator/alternator pulley)? Sorry, it's late!
So that's all I got! I'd certainly appreciate it if anybody could let me know what I left out and throw in their suggestions. This would be a budget build so keep that in mind. Thanks in advance for your input!
-Kevin |
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mtb7001 Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2009 Posts: 899 Location: Meridian Idaho
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:28 am Post subject: |
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if your'e worried about budget look for a running driving car that you can give some tlc, piecing one together from various parts and sources will cost more than you think and be a ton of hassle. _________________ 63 15 window deluxe Turkis walk through 1500
"comfort the afflicted, afflict the comfortable" |
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EODinert Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2003 Posts: 464 Location: PHX, AZ
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like a fun project, your research is pretty good.
If the oil cooler sticking out of the top of the motor is steel, and goes straight up from the mounting place, you can't use a 'doghouse' cooler. The offset cooler for the doghouse is aluminum, and the mounting bracket moves the actual location of the heat exchanger towards the front of the car. Point being, you can't use the doghouse tin.
You'll be fine with a stock setup, for what you're doing.
If you look around, you can find almost everything you need to put that motor together for less than $100. I see 'core' motors for rebuild all the time (here, and other places), that have all the bits on them. I would look locally for a old motor at the right price.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=986603
Take the parts you need off, make your motor go.
Eventually, you'll end up with a garage full of parts like the rest of us _________________ '61 rag top beetle, '73 type 181, '66 13 window deluxe |
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Themasterof42 Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2009 Posts: 327 Location: goleta
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the information! I'll definitely consider looking into a used engine that I could snag the parts off of (though I would probably still buy some of the parts new simply for reliability). But we'll see what happens! Any idea what year parts to look for? Am I restricted to 61-62 parts or will the 36hp parts (like the intake manifold for example) work on it as well. Should I be looking for something with a solex 28pict carb or will some of the later carbs work just as well?
Oh, and here are a few pictures I snagged this morning. A little dirty from sitting around but not bad from what I can tell.
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Dangermouse Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1266 Location: Beautiful New Zealand
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Stuff a piece of rag or something into those cylinder head ports and oil filler/distributor openings before you drop something down there; you be kicking yourself if you're handling a nut or something above the engine and then watch in dreadful slow motion as it slips from your fingers, bounces off seven different surfaces and plops straight into the cylinder head in a cartoon like fashion. Tests have shown that this will happen nine times out of ten and that open cylinder head ports are akin to little black holes in terms of falling fasteners _________________ Do not follow me, for I may not lead. Do not lead me, for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me either; actually just bugger off and stand over there will you. |
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Themasterof42 Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2009 Posts: 327 Location: goleta
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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Holes are officially plugged! Good thinkin! |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26300 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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Themasterof42 wrote: |
But we'll see what happens! Any idea what year parts to look for? Am I restricted to 61-62 parts or will the 36hp parts (like the intake manifold for example) work on it as well. Should I be looking for something with a solex 28pict carb or will some of the later carbs work just as well? |
Most all 36HP stuff will not work on a 40HP, the 40HP was pretty much a ground up redesign of the flat 4 engine.
While you can put later carbs on there I'd stick to a 28PICT, PICT-1 or 30PICT-1. You won't get any more power out of later carb.
Those look like the old round-boss cylinder heads. Make sure the rocker arm studs have been upgraded to "short studs" - also the heads introduced in early/mid 1965 are much improved from the ones you have on there and nice to have. (longer upper studs are needed though to run those)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=103248&
I'm sure your engine has been apart before, most have been before. That oil pump cover is not stock, and the seam of sealant I see at the case halves doesn't look original either. I've seen plenty of rebuilds where the case was never stamped anywhere by the builder.
That "X" after the engine number was something VW did towards the late 60s, before that they'd stamp an additional number into the case on the side of the engine stand and the "VW-Recycle" logo. But just becuase you have none of those doesn't mean the engine was never apart before. Your cylinders have certainly been replaced, original ones had fewer cooling fins on them. I wonder if you have a 1385cc big bore kit in there?
I gotta get ready for work today here so I don't have time to dig up much more for you, but I've posted tons of stuff about building 1200/40HPs in the past. Try this search and you'll find many of these threads though:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?search..._chars=200
-Andy |
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Themasterof42 Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2009 Posts: 327 Location: goleta
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Andy! You've got some great information! I thought it seemed rather unlikely that I would have a never rebuilt 61 engine. I'll check out your search when I get a chance and see what else I can dig up!
Also, it's probably at least worth mentioning that the engine came with a box of 87mm NPR Pistons and Cylinders. From my understanding they would be used for a 1600 engine block (think I was told stock is 85mm) Probably not relevant to this engine but you never know. |
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Themasterof42 Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2009 Posts: 327 Location: goleta
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm...
It appears that I have the undesirable long studs if I'm correct...
Should shorter studs be in this engines future? |
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WesleyGarrard Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007 Posts: 541 Location: Pekin, Il
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Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:45 am Post subject: |
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he means short stud rocker studs. what you are looking at there are the head studs. Andy has pics of exactly that which I am sure he will post up soon anyway |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26300 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, exactly - those look to be short stud. Either converted early heads or late replacement "F" series heads. Some pictures:
-Andy
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Themasterof42 Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2009 Posts: 327 Location: goleta
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Good to hear I've probably got the short studs. Just an update, this weekend I will most likely be looking at some 40hp stuff off of what I'm told was a 63 bug (carb, engine tin, intake, starter, fuel pump, etc). It sounds like prices will be fairly decent. Should there be any concern about part interchangeability? My engine is light enough in it's current state that I could always take it along with me if need be. Just trying to figure out if that would be smart. |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Go up to the technical tab and click on it. Make a copy of the engine codes and dates of manufacture. Most cars have non original engines by now so just because the car is a 63 does not mean the engine is; even if someone tells you otherwise. if it is indeed a 63 beetle engine by engine code I cannot think of anything off hand that would not be interchangeable or work with your 40 hp engine. There aren't too many 40 hp engines that received upgrades to larger displacement around these days. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26300 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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There is an early and late intake manifold - I'm betting you have the later heads but check that and make sure the manifold matches. Also it would be nice if you got a manifold where the heat riser tube that goes to the muffler is not blocked off with carbon, but that's very common, and you'll probably have to clean it out yourself. (many threads on that on theSamba)
Carb - 28 or 28PICT-1 would be good, but if it's got really sloppy throttle shaft bushing I might pass. Or plan on sending it in somewhere to get rebushed.
Other interchangability, hopefully they all are 1200 parts. 1300-1600 tin around the cylinders is longer due to longer stroke and shaped differently around the manifold/head area. And then there is stale-air vs fresh air. You'll need to decide which you want. Stock in 61-mid 63 was stale air. Then was fresh air. The fan shroud, cylinder covers, rear-of-car breast plate and heater boxes are different between the two. Read some more about that here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=140288&
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=144966&
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=153281&
You probably won't be getting any of the thermostat stuff, unless you are lucky. Most everyone threw that stuff away years ago, although it's now considered best to retain and use it. Up to 1964 VW used a "throttle ring" for thermostat control, this is a big flap that blocks off the intake of air to the engine so it warms up faster. Later they changed to flaps inside the fan housing.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=340020
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=193217
Okay, gotta run, hopefully I put in some links that'll help you out there.
-Andy |
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Themasterof42 Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2009 Posts: 327 Location: goleta
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! That actually helps a lot! I'll be sure read up on as much as I can before I head over there! The guy says he's taken apart four 40hp engines and has boxes of parts so I'm keeping my fingers crossed!
Also, I took a valve cover off and snapped a few more pictures just in case anyone was interested. On the bottom left side the numbers 30 9 14 were written (kind of hard to make out from my pictures).
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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The 113 101 171 with no letter suffix is a bit unusual my resources say very early bus 40 hp. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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