Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Help! Got a 1200cc Engine - Need information and advice
Forum Index -> Beetle - 1958-1967 Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Themasterof42
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2009
Posts: 327
Location: goleta
Themasterof42 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:23 am    Post subject: Help! Got a 1200cc Engine - Need information and advice Reply with quote

Hey guys! I recently got my hands on what appears to be a 1200cc Longblock for a 61 bug (I compared the engine number to those listed on the How to Keep Your VW Alive Book and according to that it would be between Dec 61 and 62). I've been doing as much research as I can just trying to figure out more about this thing. I've been using the search extensively but I decided a posting would be a tad bit more simple as I am in need of a lot of information. Hopefully I will get some useful feedback. I'll try to throw a picture or two up when I get a chance.

Anyways, the engine is almost completely lacking in accessories besides an oil cooler coming out of the top of the case and a standard muffler. I was told it was bought new many years ago and never fired. The price was right so I snatched it. The heads are single port and have no carbon build up or anything from what I can tell. I popped the valve covers off and everything looks spotless from what I can tell (I'm a college kid and have had vw's for about a year and a half so I'm still learning...please go easy on me!). Engine turns over freely and seems to have compression. I saw no stamping or anything on the heads but the block, valve covers, oil cooler, and other accessories have the vw stamping on them. On the left hand side there is a circular piece of metal that says "guarantee, void if removed." On one of the heads "46" is written on with sharpie. From what I can tell the case does not appear to be split and there is no X after the engine number (I think I read that this would indicate a factory rebuild). The stamping under where the generator stand should be appears to be original as well (think I read that sometimes re-builders re-stamp them or something) Beyond that, this engine is a mystery to me.

So, is there anything else I can look for to help understand what I'm dealing with? Please let me know!




Now, I have another series of questions. If everything checks out, I plan to locate a cheap bug (probably 69 and up for IRS, Price, and safety) to throw this into to make my daily commute to college a little cheaper next semester (I currently have a 77 bus. 40+ miles a day gets real expensive real quick on a college budget). I realize a 40hp engine is going to be slow but that's not that much of a problem for me. So, what exactly do I need to get this thing running. I'm unfamiliar with bugs so bear with me. Here's a list of parts I've thrown together with retailers and prices. Any suggestions would be excellent! (I am in the brainstorming stage of this project so I'm trying to get an appropriate cost estimate) I'm sure I've left stuff out so please chime in!


Airheadparts.com (local retailer)

Fuel Pump 26.50
Gaskets 0.70
Alternator Conversion Kit w/stand and pulley 147.95 (engine would likely go into 12v car)
Distributor Mechanical Advance (Canno) 56.95
Fuel Filter 1.50
Pressure Plate 180mm 49.95
Spring Kit 6.95
Clutch disc 180mm (spring or rigid? what's better?) 19.95
Release Bearing 40.15
oil pressure sender

Busdepot.com

Spark Plugs 7.00
Coil 12v 23.23


Samba Classified (with estimated pricing)


40hp Intake Manifold 25.00'ish
Oil Filler 20'ish
Oil Bath/Air Cleaner 50'ish

Good Rebuilt Carb: Heard a properly rebuilt German Solex 28pict1 carb was the way to go. Is this the general consensus? About what kind of price should I expect to pay for this? 150'ish? Am I way off?

6 volt starter: Probably will purchase from airheads. Heard 6v will work even for 12v conversion if it isn't overused. Is this the way to go? Remember this is a 61 engine so my understanding is that the gearing on a 12 volt won't work. Is that correct?



Final Questions:

What Kind of tin would I need? I've heard mention of the doghouse system. What's the way to go?

What kind of crank (think that's the correct terminology) do I need to go with (you know, front of the engine...connects to the generator/alternator pulley)? Sorry, it's late!




So that's all I got! I'd certainly appreciate it if anybody could let me know what I left out and throw in their suggestions. This would be a budget build so keep that in mind. Thanks in advance for your input!


-Kevin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
mtb7001
Samba Member


Joined: February 11, 2009
Posts: 899
Location: Meridian Idaho
mtb7001 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if your'e worried about budget look for a running driving car that you can give some tlc, piecing one together from various parts and sources will cost more than you think and be a ton of hassle.
_________________
63 15 window deluxe Turkis walk through 1500
"comfort the afflicted, afflict the comfortable"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
EODinert
Samba Member


Joined: April 11, 2003
Posts: 464
Location: PHX, AZ
EODinert is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a fun project, your research is pretty good.

If the oil cooler sticking out of the top of the motor is steel, and goes straight up from the mounting place, you can't use a 'doghouse' cooler. The offset cooler for the doghouse is aluminum, and the mounting bracket moves the actual location of the heat exchanger towards the front of the car. Point being, you can't use the doghouse tin.

You'll be fine with a stock setup, for what you're doing.

If you look around, you can find almost everything you need to put that motor together for less than $100. I see 'core' motors for rebuild all the time (here, and other places), that have all the bits on them. I would look locally for a old motor at the right price.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=986603

Take the parts you need off, make your motor go.

Eventually, you'll end up with a garage full of parts like the rest of us Smile
_________________
'61 rag top beetle, '73 type 181, '66 13 window deluxe
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Themasterof42
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2009
Posts: 327
Location: goleta
Themasterof42 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the information! I'll definitely consider looking into a used engine that I could snag the parts off of (though I would probably still buy some of the parts new simply for reliability). But we'll see what happens! Any idea what year parts to look for? Am I restricted to 61-62 parts or will the 36hp parts (like the intake manifold for example) work on it as well. Should I be looking for something with a solex 28pict carb or will some of the later carbs work just as well?



Oh, and here are a few pictures I snagged this morning. A little dirty from sitting around but not bad from what I can tell.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Dangermouse
Samba Member


Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1266
Location: Beautiful New Zealand
Dangermouse is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stuff a piece of rag or something into those cylinder head ports and oil filler/distributor openings before you drop something down there; you be kicking yourself if you're handling a nut or something above the engine and then watch in dreadful slow motion as it slips from your fingers, bounces off seven different surfaces and plops straight into the cylinder head in a cartoon like fashion. Tests have shown that this will happen nine times out of ten and that open cylinder head ports are akin to little black holes in terms of falling fasteners Smile
_________________
Do not follow me, for I may not lead. Do not lead me, for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me either; actually just bugger off and stand over there will you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Themasterof42
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2009
Posts: 327
Location: goleta
Themasterof42 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holes are officially plugged! Good thinkin!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
glutamodo Premium Member
The Android


Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26300
Location: Douglas, WY
glutamodo is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Themasterof42 wrote:
But we'll see what happens! Any idea what year parts to look for? Am I restricted to 61-62 parts or will the 36hp parts (like the intake manifold for example) work on it as well. Should I be looking for something with a solex 28pict carb or will some of the later carbs work just as well?


Most all 36HP stuff will not work on a 40HP, the 40HP was pretty much a ground up redesign of the flat 4 engine.

While you can put later carbs on there I'd stick to a 28PICT, PICT-1 or 30PICT-1. You won't get any more power out of later carb.

Those look like the old round-boss cylinder heads. Make sure the rocker arm studs have been upgraded to "short studs" - also the heads introduced in early/mid 1965 are much improved from the ones you have on there and nice to have. (longer upper studs are needed though to run those)

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=103248&


I'm sure your engine has been apart before, most have been before. That oil pump cover is not stock, and the seam of sealant I see at the case halves doesn't look original either. I've seen plenty of rebuilds where the case was never stamped anywhere by the builder.

That "X" after the engine number was something VW did towards the late 60s, before that they'd stamp an additional number into the case on the side of the engine stand and the "VW-Recycle" logo. But just becuase you have none of those doesn't mean the engine was never apart before. Your cylinders have certainly been replaced, original ones had fewer cooling fins on them. I wonder if you have a 1385cc big bore kit in there?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I gotta get ready for work today here so I don't have time to dig up much more for you, but I've posted tons of stuff about building 1200/40HPs in the past. Try this search and you'll find many of these threads though:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?search..._chars=200

-Andy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Themasterof42
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2009
Posts: 327
Location: goleta
Themasterof42 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Andy! You've got some great information! I thought it seemed rather unlikely that I would have a never rebuilt 61 engine. I'll check out your search when I get a chance and see what else I can dig up!

Also, it's probably at least worth mentioning that the engine came with a box of 87mm NPR Pistons and Cylinders. From my understanding they would be used for a 1600 engine block (think I was told stock is 85mm) Probably not relevant to this engine but you never know.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Themasterof42
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2009
Posts: 327
Location: goleta
Themasterof42 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm...


It appears that I have the undesirable long studs if I'm correct...


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Should shorter studs be in this engines future?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
WesleyGarrard
Samba Member


Joined: October 08, 2007
Posts: 541
Location: Pekin, Il
WesleyGarrard is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

he means short stud rocker studs. what you are looking at there are the head studs. Andy has pics of exactly that which I am sure he will post up soon anyway
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
glutamodo Premium Member
The Android


Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26300
Location: Douglas, WY
glutamodo is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, exactly - those look to be short stud. Either converted early heads or late replacement "F" series heads. Some pictures:

-Andy

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Themasterof42
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2009
Posts: 327
Location: goleta
Themasterof42 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to hear I've probably got the short studs. Just an update, this weekend I will most likely be looking at some 40hp stuff off of what I'm told was a 63 bug (carb, engine tin, intake, starter, fuel pump, etc). It sounds like prices will be fairly decent. Should there be any concern about part interchangeability? My engine is light enough in it's current state that I could always take it along with me if need be. Just trying to figure out if that would be smart.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
tasb
The Distributor Distributor


Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
tasb is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go up to the technical tab and click on it. Make a copy of the engine codes and dates of manufacture. Most cars have non original engines by now so just because the car is a 63 does not mean the engine is; even if someone tells you otherwise. if it is indeed a 63 beetle engine by engine code I cannot think of anything off hand that would not be interchangeable or work with your 40 hp engine. There aren't too many 40 hp engines that received upgrades to larger displacement around these days.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
glutamodo Premium Member
The Android


Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26300
Location: Douglas, WY
glutamodo is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is an early and late intake manifold - I'm betting you have the later heads but check that and make sure the manifold matches. Also it would be nice if you got a manifold where the heat riser tube that goes to the muffler is not blocked off with carbon, but that's very common, and you'll probably have to clean it out yourself. (many threads on that on theSamba)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Carb - 28 or 28PICT-1 would be good, but if it's got really sloppy throttle shaft bushing I might pass. Or plan on sending it in somewhere to get rebushed.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Other interchangability, hopefully they all are 1200 parts. 1300-1600 tin around the cylinders is longer due to longer stroke and shaped differently around the manifold/head area. And then there is stale-air vs fresh air. You'll need to decide which you want. Stock in 61-mid 63 was stale air. Then was fresh air. The fan shroud, cylinder covers, rear-of-car breast plate and heater boxes are different between the two. Read some more about that here:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=140288&
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=144966&
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=153281&


You probably won't be getting any of the thermostat stuff, unless you are lucky. Most everyone threw that stuff away years ago, although it's now considered best to retain and use it. Up to 1964 VW used a "throttle ring" for thermostat control, this is a big flap that blocks off the intake of air to the engine so it warms up faster. Later they changed to flaps inside the fan housing.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=340020
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=193217

Okay, gotta run, hopefully I put in some links that'll help you out there.

-Andy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Themasterof42
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2009
Posts: 327
Location: goleta
Themasterof42 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! That actually helps a lot! I'll be sure read up on as much as I can before I head over there! The guy says he's taken apart four 40hp engines and has boxes of parts so I'm keeping my fingers crossed!


Also, I took a valve cover off and snapped a few more pictures just in case anyone was interested. On the bottom left side the numbers 30 9 14 were written (kind of hard to make out from my pictures).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
tasb
The Distributor Distributor


Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
tasb is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 113 101 171 with no letter suffix is a bit unusual my resources say very early bus 40 hp.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - 1958-1967 All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.