| Author |
Message |
Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
|
 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:32 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
<< You are assuming that as installed, all components in the system are performing at maximum capacity, which probably isn't true. >>
Been sitting on this one for awhile prior to responding.
I don't assume anything here is running 100%.
In a matter of fact I know it isn't just by reading the posts & the Chinese freight short cuts, & the reasons why it's all allegidly good.
<<The evaporator coil has many possible BTUH outputs depending on airflow across it. Play with any coil selection program and you will find this out. Increase the CFM, and in all probability you will increase the BTU output...modestly. In all reality, the components that were installed are designed to perform at 80-90% of capacity. People are finding ways to get to the full capacity mark, and increasing CFM is one way.>>
Look.
If the Vanagon sytem is rated at 10,000 BTU's--that's all it's gonna put out regardless how much air you blow the air over the coils.
You could blow a 10 ton units fan over them coils--all's your gonna get outa it is what it's rated at.
Period.
Blow more CFM than the system requires--you start losing BTU's--not gain.
This all AC 101.
Half of the evaporator coils here are plugged with garbage--and you want to blow more air over a restricted evaporator?
Ain't goona make one iota of more cold air--just more air blowing around, at the coils current capacity.
<<Before you go blasting me with all your "banter">>
No Banter--just the facts of life.
<< I'm not an internet armchair quarterback. I do this every day and get paid well for it. >>
Good for you.
Then you should know much better.
When you can allegidly get 20,000 BTU's out of a 10,000 btu unit by simply blowing more air volume over the coils--you've just been named Werner Von Braun of the AC world.
It just simply ain't gonna happen, plain & simple.
_________________
T.K.
Last edited by Terry Kay on Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:10 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Typhon2222
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 363
Location: Berkeley, CA --> Berlin, Germany
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
I shall order this and whack off the louvers:
...and shall remove the huge wind-blocking, head-bruising device.  |
Oooh, that looks excellent.
Hmmm, maybe our Basil would benefit from one of those too... Is that something we could order online Kam?
_________________
Basil — '88 Dove Blue Westy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7915
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Typhon2222 wrote: |
Hmmm, maybe our Basil would benefit from one of those too... Is that something we could order online Kam? |
Oopsie!  That would've been nice to have mentioned, eh? I found it at http://www.signaturehardware.com/product5449 . Based on your measurements, I got the one with the overall dimensions of 3-5/8"x 14". I went with the cheapest, non-polished version so I could easily paint it (black or gray, can't decide).
For a second there, I changed my mind back again: Went out to the van, took a peek inside to see how dirty the ceiling wallpaper was (surprisingly clean!), and noticed the large gap above the closet. Looking at a few Westy photos -- of old and newer interiors -- they all have that gap... so, removal is still on!
_________________
~Kamz 
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Typhon2222
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 363
Location: Berkeley, CA --> Berlin, Germany
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| I found it at http://www.signaturehardware.com/product5449 . Based on your measurements, I got the one with the overall dimensions of 3-5/8"x 14". I went with the cheapest, non-polished version so I could easily paint it (black or gray, can't decide). |
Oh nice, that should fit perfectly. Indulge us with pics when you're done, will you? I'll also be curious to hear whether you notice any diminishment in air flow with the grille up. If it's pretty negligible, I'll probably follow your lead. (Might even be tempted to paint it blue, though that's silly talk. )
_________________
Basil — '88 Dove Blue Westy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7915
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Typhon2222 wrote: |
Indulge us with pics when you're done, will you? |
Of course! And I'll include anemometer readings too. 
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
campism
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2007
Posts: 4491
Location: Richmond VA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| You boys are gettin' waaay fancy here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Typhon2222
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 363
Location: Berkeley, CA --> Berlin, Germany
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| campism wrote: |
| You boys are gettin' waaay fancy here. |
Hah! I blame Kam and her mad home-improvement skills. But ultimately YOU, Mr. Mister, and your initial description of the joys of going plenum-less.
_________________
Basil — '88 Dove Blue Westy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7915
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So, despite it being 109°F in the van today ...
Before:
After:
I can't believe half the interior had to be removed in order to get to those 3 screws. All for the better I guess, 'cuz I was able to clean the 20 years of accumulated dirt on the back side of the storage tray.  And, I can't believe that even the brackets on that plenum were plastic; the little bracket broke removing the screw!
So anyway, hot damn do I love the new rear seat headroom!! And after moving the van back into the garage, I flipped on the A/C for a quick test. First reaction:  . Second reaction: . Oh, lord, is that hurricane glorious!!
Grille is scheduled to arrive on Saturday. Will update wind readings this weekend. 
Staring into that groove left behind, I thought of something that could possibly fill it in: tube lighting. I probably won't be doing that myself, but thought I'd give you guys an idea.
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
singler3360
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 1191
Location: Corvallis, Oregon
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Thanks for the pics Kam. I look forward to the readings. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Typhon2222
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 363
Location: Berkeley, CA --> Berlin, Germany
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yeehaw, yay Kam! Glad it all worked out, and that you're happy with the results.
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
So, despite it being 109°F in the van today ...
I can't believe half the interior had to be removed in order to get to those 3 screws. All for the better I guess, 'cuz I was able to clean the 20 years of accumulated dirt on the back side of the storage tray. And, I can't believe that even the brackets on that plenum were plastic; the little bracket broke removing the screw! |
Yeah, I remember breaking one of those brackets too when I removed mine last summer. Piece of..... What the heck was VW thinking when they decided to install those things? I mean, really, what was the point of it supposed to be?
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| So anyway, hot damn do I love the new rear seat headroom!! And after moving the van back into the garage, I flipped on the A/C for a quick test. First reaction: . Second reaction: . Oh, lord, is that hurricane glorious!! |
Uh huh, yesh yesh yesh. It's almost disconcerting at first, being blasted by all that cold air....
I'm too short to notice the extra headroom over the back seat much, but my wife (who's six inches taller than me) sure appreciates it. 
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
Grille is scheduled to arrive on Saturday. Will update wind readings this weekend.
Staring into that groove left behind, I thought of something that could possibly fill it in: tube lighting. I probably won't be doing that myself, but thought I'd give you guys an idea. |
Huh, tube lighting.....
By the way: how did your and Campism's ceilings both escape being horribly blackened by their years of contact with the plenum's insulating foam? My newly-exposed ceiling resembled the ash wastes of Mordor. I just covered the whole thing up with contact paper. I didn't know about Mr. Clean's Magic Erasers at the time — I first found out about them a few days ago, when looking over your lovely photo-illustrated blog of improvements to Old Blue. (Sure gave me some ideas.) So I ran out yesterday to buy some. They are marvelous. Did you use them to clean up the ceiling before the shot?
Also, I adore your blue curtains. They look fantastic. Must have been oodles of work?
_________________
Basil — '88 Dove Blue Westy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7915
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Typhon2222 wrote: |
| Piece of..... What the heck was VW thinking when they decided to install those things? I mean, really, what was the point of it supposed to be? |
Well, I can understand the why behind it (move more air -ha!- up to the front, while eliminating rear passengers' "frozen head syndrome"), but the engineering behind it is certainly questionable.
| Typhon2222 wrote: |
| By the way: how did your and Campism's ceilings both escape being horribly blackened by their years of contact with the plenum's insulating foam? My newly-exposed ceiling resembled the ash wastes of Mordor. I just covered the whole thing up with contact paper. I didn't know about Mr. Clean's Magic Erasers at the time — I first found out about them a few days ago, when looking over your photo-illustrated blog of improvements to Old Blue. They are marvelous. Did you use them to clean up the ceiling before the shot? |
That's one thing I still need to clean, actually. By the time I got the storage tray back in place, and the cross-member trim back on I'd had it; the heat had done me in. Put the van away and went into the cool, refreshing house. But, yeah, mine is relatively clean and 99% of the foam is still intact on the plenum. There is a spot, you can kind of see in the photo, just in front of the hole that's black; but that's essentially the only bad spot. The "wallpaper" is dirty, but definitely not like yours was. I'll take a couple of better pictures tomorrow (er, later today now).
| Typhon2222 wrote: |
| Oh, I adore your blue curtains. They look fantastic. Must have been oodles of work? |
Oh, thank you! Finally found the perfect blue plaid earlier this year and bought every bolt of it in AZ, literally (wanted a bunch leftover --it was a discontinued fabric-- in case of future repair needs). Oodles of work? Kind of. The curtains themselves are a cinch to make; it was making the curtain hook tape that was a tad tedious, and I used hidden magnets instead of snap closures (and along the edges to keep them against the walls). But, yeah, I love them! They really spice up the interior.
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7915
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You've been on pins & needles waiting for this, right? 
Okay, here we go:
The airflow up front nearly doubled with the plenum off.
The vent grille arrived this morning and after unscrewing the louvers I had my doubts; too much cross-hatching. Prediction: It will decrease airflow by quite a bit. Results (taken at the vent; couldn't hold the grille in place and check at the front seats 'cuz my arms aren't elastic ):
Fan speed 3, no grille: 25.7
Fan speed 3, with grille: 16.7
Fan speed 4, no grille: 37.7
Fan speed 4, with grille: 23.0
Bottom line: won't be using the grille I bought; it decreases airflow down to plenum levels. I'll be fabricating my own grille, with far fewer slats, out of wood, but I may have to wait a bit (Dad has a router, I don't; he'll be visiting in a couple of weeks).
Here's what the ceiling looked like prior to cleaning; not too bad:
Before:
After, all cleaned up, just waiting for a vent grille. Relocated the speaker wires, removed the wire holders, filled the cabinet holes with bolts, and put the screws back in the ceiling:
What's that in the groove? Small diameter rope light:
Two sections of it are out, so it won't be staying. I will, however, locate a new roll... yep, I changed my mind; the mood lighting is a keeper!
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
siliconn
Samba Member
Joined: March 21, 2009
Posts: 22
Location: western australia
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thought I'd chime in.
Looks like some of the coldness is taken up in, cooling down the duct, and the ceiling.
Then we have a change in cross section from a big rectangle to lots of smaller rectangles with vents. This causes the air to slow down as we have seen.
If you extend the big cross section you loose head room, which must be why VW did the duct like that.
If you remove the duct the air speeds up, which would mean it has less time to pick up coldness. But it is recirculated. so it still gets colder and colder.
Has anybody tried piping the air around the sides, you could use plastic pipe from a hardware store? On the side with the sink you don't need headroom.
You can get more btus out of the system by not wasting they coldness you get by cooling down the air box outlet and the ceiling. And by not restricting airflow.
At the moment with this duct/plenum on the outlet, the duct is taking coolness and speed from the air (the air that the air conditioner has cooled down ) and transferring coolness to the duct itself and the ceiling, thus heating up and slowing down the air coming out.
So there you go |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Typhon2222
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 363
Location: Berkeley, CA --> Berlin, Germany
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| You've been on pins & needles waiting for this, right? |
I sure have!
It's great to have the anemometer readings without the plenum Kam.
I'm just sorry to hear that the grille is such an obstruction. I lack the craftiness to concoct one myself with fewer slats. That's okay though; I don't mind the look of it open. So we'll just leave it as is.
I know so little about such things.... I'm guessing you rerouted the speaker wire to just run fully inside the A/C cabinet? How did you get a free end for that? Something a klutz like myself could do?
The mood lights are shmexy. 
_________________
Basil — '88 Dove Blue Westy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7915
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Typhon2222 wrote: |
It's great to have the anemometer readings without the plenum Kam. |
I'm presently working on a document that sums this entire plenum thread up: before and after photos, Evil's temp readings, my airflow readings, etc. The main reason is because my blog space is so small for each entry that I want to refer readers to something more thorough, and this thread is just too long (what with the BTU bickering and all  ). The second reason is so that the Anti-Plenum Coalition has one stop shopping, so-to-speak.
| Typhon2222 wrote: |
| I'm just sorry to hear that the grille is such an obstruction. I lack the craftiness to concoct one myself with fewer slats. That's okay though; I don't mind the look of it open. So we'll just leave it as is. |
Yeah, well, such is the experimentation life; sometimes things work, sometimes they don't (and that's why I didn't get the more expensive grille). I've got a bunch of wood leftover from a project; we'll make a few grilles out of it. If you like the results (and if this new one works!), I'd be happy to ship you one.
| Typhon2222 wrote: |
| I know so little about such things.... I'm guessing you rerouted the speaker wire to just run fully inside the A/C cabinet? How did you get a free end for that? Something a klutz like myself could do? |
Good thing VW/Westfalia wrapped those wires in black tape, otherwise you'd be able to see them in those photos. (On the other hand, the adhesive oozed out over the years so it was sticky as heck  ). I poked around inside the cabinet and there was zero room to run the wires under the A/C stuff. So, I routed them along the top. There was just enough of a gap along the top of the cabinet for the wires to fit.
I don't know how the '87 is wired (I presume it's the same?), but in the '90 you simply remove the passenger side speaker, disconnect the two wires, pull the wires through the hole, remove the wires from those metal clips, and pull the wires through the driver's side hole. I had to remove the bolts on the driver's side so I could drop that side of the cabinet just a fraction so the wire connectors could squeeze out over the top of the cabinet. I pulled out enough wire to reach back over to the passenger side, plus some extra (more than enough wire length hiding behind the driver's side speaker). I then put the bolts back in and stuffed the wires into the gap along the top, dropped them back into the cabinet (about where the wire hole is), reconnected them to the speaker, reinstalled the speaker... done. It sounds more complicated than it actually is.
Oh, and those metal clips are the stick-on type. It's 100°+ in my garage so the adhesive on those little guys were automatically pre-heated/softened for me. I simply used a plastic interior trim tool (plastic scraper, spatula, etc. would work too) to ease them off.
If you could go through the complicated process of removing the plenum, I have faith that you can hide the wires. Give it a try!
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Typhon2222
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 363
Location: Berkeley, CA --> Berlin, Germany
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| I'm presently working on a document that sums this entire plenum thread up: before and after photos, Evil's temp readings, my airflow readings, etc. The main reason is because my blog space is so small for each entry that I want to refer readers to something more thorough, and this thread is just too long (what with the BTU bickering and all ). The second reason is so that the Anti-Plenum Coalition has one stop shopping, so-to-speak. |
Oh yay! Ever since I yanked the plenum a year ago, I've been wishing that we could change the title of this thread, or better yet, start a new one devoted to the topic. But I didn't know how to selectively export all the great posts here into a new one, so just gave up. Sounds as if your document will solve the problem. Here's hoping it gets its own devoted thread.
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| Yeah, well, such is the experimentation life; sometimes things work, sometimes they don't (and that's why I didn't get the more expensive grille). I've got a bunch of wood leftover from a project; we'll make a few grilles out of it. If you like the results (and if this new one works!), I'd be happy to ship you one. |
You rock my socks. Can't wait to see what you rig up. If you're happy with it, I'll definitely be taking you up on your kind offer.
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
Good thing VW/Westfalia wrapped those wires in black tape, otherwise you'd be able to see them in those photos. (On the other hand, the adhesive oozed out over the years so it was sticky as heck ). I poked around inside the cabinet and there was zero room to run the wires under the A/C stuff. So, I routed them along the top. There was just enough of a gap along the top of the cabinet for the wires to fit.
I don't know how the '87 is wired (I presume it's the same?), but in the '90 you simply remove the passenger side speaker, disconnect the two wires, pull the wires through the hole, remove the wires from those metal clips, and pull the wires through the driver's side hole. I had to remove the bolts on the driver's side so I could drop that side of the cabinet just a fraction so the wire connectors could squeeze out over the top of the cabinet. I pulled out enough wire to reach back over to the passenger side, plus some extra (more than enough wire length hiding behind the driver's side speaker). I then put the bolts back in and stuffed the wires into the gap along the top, dropped them back into the cabinet (about where the wire hole is), reconnected them to the speaker, reinstalled the speaker... done. It sounds more complicated than it actually is.
Oh, and those metal clips are the stick-on type. It's 100°+ in my garage so the adhesive on those little guys were automatically pre-heated/softened for me. I simply used a plastic interior trim tool (plastic scraper, spatula, etc. would work too) to ease them off.
If you could go through the complicated process of removing the plenum, I have faith that you can hide the wires. Give it a try! |
Oh awesome! I'm going to go try it right now. <rubs hands, cackles>
_________________
Basil — '88 Dove Blue Westy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Typhon2222
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 363
Location: Berkeley, CA --> Berlin, Germany
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hmmm, now that I look more closely at your pics Kam, I think my speaker wire is thicker than yours. Does mine look fatter?
Dunno if it'll squeeze above the cabinet... 
_________________
Basil — '88 Dove Blue Westy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7915
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Typhon2222 wrote: |
Hmmm, now that I look more closely at your pics Kam, I think my speaker wire is thicker than yours. Does mine look fatter?
Dunno if it'll squeeze above the cabinet... |
Hmmm, yeah, yours appears to be quite a bit thicker. If that's just a wire loom I'm seeing, you could pull the wires out of it after pulling it all through the holes. If the wires themselves are bigger, then, yeah, I'm afraid running them across the top might not work. You'll have to remove the passenger side speaker and take a peek at the wires; if they are the stock wires encased in a fat wire loom, you're golden.
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
purplepeopleeater
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2005
Posts: 3117
Location: E. Washington
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I took my rear cabinet out and put an early westy vent cover, works heaps better then the starship looking one that was in it.
ONLY reason I did this was due to head room, everytime I wake up I bash my head on that stupid thing. not an issue now. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
campism
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2007
Posts: 4491
Location: Richmond VA
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
And, I can't believe that even the brackets on that plenum were plastic; the little bracket broke removing the screw!
|
See the pic below for a fix I did on the broken plenum plastic mounting brackets. This was before I decided not to reinstall this piece in the van. I cut small wood pieces to fit into each of the plastic pieces, then smeared the tops of the wood pieces with Gorilla Glue, then stuffed pieces of paper below to hold the wood in position while the glue dried. Now there is something substantial to screw to, if I ever reinstall the plenum. You can see it has gathered dust from being stored in the attic.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
