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koolmoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:56 am    Post subject: Starter access/wiring Reply with quote

After long trip, my bus did great...mostly (re: earlier exhaust issue).
Through hours of rain on the way back yesterday and 1.5 hours from home, gassing up, and she wouldn't start (no crank).
Finally messed with the starter, once I found it, and wiggled/reconnected the wires..blindly.
Fired right up and drove home. Phew...

SO, first, what the heck on the starter placement? How am I supposed to check the wiring? No way to see what I'm doing...or am I missing a secret angle?

I think I can wiggle a ratchet in to pull it, but not only does that seem tricky but I can't see the wire connections, so I'll just blindly pull them?
(I'm working under ramps, no lift).

Any suggestions on pulling and/or viewing these connections? How do you see where to reconnect the wires?!
Argh.
Thanks,
KM
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koolmoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's a pic of the starter, 1 good one after many attempts wiggling the camera up there...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The broken wire seems almost unneeded as the bus starts fine as it is...so guess the earlier issue was the other 'plug' coming loose and/or getting wet...

I did at least grind/clean the transmission ground while I was under there (and it wasn't too bad anyway)
KM
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from '95 til 2008: 1995 Pathfinder (frame rusted out, charitable parts donation)
from '91-'95: 1982 Westy Diesel (Smokey. Traded in for far too little!)
from '87-'91: 1980 VW Rabbit (my econoPorsche - passed on)
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koolmoe
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

little bump. Any thoughts on why that broken wire is unnecessary, or what I'm missing with it broken?
And/or any suggestions on best dealing with the starter location. No problem pulling it, but how do I accurately reconnect the wires once done? Just touch/feel? A mirror? Ack...
Thanks,
KM
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from '95 til 2008: 1995 Pathfinder (frame rusted out, charitable parts donation)
from '91-'95: 1982 Westy Diesel (Smokey. Traded in for far too little!)
from '87-'91: 1980 VW Rabbit (my econoPorsche - passed on)
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ajdenette
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think a 2wd vanagon starter bad take a look at a syncro Laughing the starter has a divit in the tank that covers the half of the starter not in contact with the transaxle Rolling Eyes
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erdonline
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:40 pm    Post subject: starter installation Reply with quote

I just helped someone replace their starter Sunday. The view is not great, but between looking from above and below, you can see all the terminals, especially with a flashlight. Of course, pull the rubber cover off the main terminal.

Ed in CT
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Last edited by erdonline on Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Timwhy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I replaced my starter last year and I used the wifes' compact mirror throught the engine compartment lid to see what I could see.

Used the mirror to take out and put in the new bushing into the bellhousing. I didn't want to try and lay on my back under the van ine the driveway. It's a little akward working through the engine bay but it can be done, maybe a shorter person would have an easier time at it.

As far as the wires, I'd be concerned that one was broke off and seemingly not being used. Follow the wire trail and see where the offender goes. I had to put on some new connectors on my wires as the old ones were worn out and did not make a good connection.

Here's the thread when I asked pretty much the same question about the wiring, maybe it will help you.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...highlight=
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koolmoe
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies.
The rubber cover on the main terminals seems in fine shape and in place. I'm hesitant to touch it! Either way, my main concern is primarily what that broken wire is for (and why the bus seems to start fine with it broken) and, secondarily, figuring out how to tighten the connection of the black plug with the fat red (power) cable.

Reading through the Bentley, removing the starter seems significantly more complex than I'd thought - not something I want to attempt with my limited tools and measly ramps. So guess I'll just lean over the engine more and wedge my head in the small space...or get myself a mirror.

The Bentley also does not mention the actual wires to the starter, nor what they're for! Or am I just completely missing it... I'm very much bothered by this broken wire...but everything seems to work fine without it. Argh...

I thought maybe it's the wire from the AT shifter safety...but that works. If I'm in Drive, no start. In Park or Neutral, starts right up (though it can be a little finicky about the shifter position).

TimWhy, your starter doesn't seem to have this connection. Anyone else have a thought as to what this stinkin' wire is for?
Thanks Wink
KM
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from '95 til 2008: 1995 Pathfinder (frame rusted out, charitable parts donation)
from '91-'95: 1982 Westy Diesel (Smokey. Traded in for far too little!)
from '87-'91: 1980 VW Rabbit (my econoPorsche - passed on)
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Timwhy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

koolmoe wrote:
here's a pic of the starter, 1 good one after many attempts wiggling the camera up there...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The broken wire seems almost unneeded as the bus starts fine as it is...so guess the earlier issue was the other 'plug' coming loose and/or getting wet...

I did at least grind/clean the transmission ground while I was under there (and it wasn't too bad anyway)
KM


Koolmoe is that connector on the top right of the pic have any wire attached to it?
It doesn't look like there's anything on it?

Looking at the pic of my old starter it shows 2 positions for connectors in the same place as yours. Mine are showing only one position being used and maybe yours has a relay connected to it.
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'87 VW Westy
'91 Tin Top
'90 Cabby
What the Westy wants the Westy GETS


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Timwhy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW tomorrow I will be helping my friend Gus put in a new starter in his 85. Don't be afraid to do this job yourself, just basic tools and alittle time will all that's needed.
Make sure you stuff a clean rag into the bell housing after you take off the old starter so nothing falls in.
Good Luck!
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'87 VW Westy
'91 Tin Top
'90 Cabby
What the Westy wants the Westy GETS


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Cold Steel
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good job on getting it to go on your trip. You are pretty much in the area. You should check with alaric hernandez on the site. He does all the work on my van. He does a really good job and couldnt be nicer. Oh I should tell you he does it once. Wink
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morymob
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't see it mentioned but removing the tire makes it a lot easier.
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koolmoe
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for more replies - I didn't get an email that there were any, forgive my delay...

Tim, nope, the top small connection is the one the wire has broken from (I'm assuming)...the broken wire sitting on the starter. That's the most puzzling, it's plainly broken but doesn't seem to matter! I want to fix it, but how critical it is on my list depends on what it's for.... Currently, it's down the list as it doesn't seem to actually matter that the connection is broken.

Maybe there is a relay that, if disconnected, is bypassed by the charge being sent from the switch all the way to the starter....which the local relay is supposed to negate the need for, yes? I dunno. I wish I knew what that connection was specifically intended for...

Alaric's been very kind in offering help, just getting past DC into NoVa for a weekend is a challenge Wink

I'm very worried about working under the bus without a tire on - I don't have jack stands or the like. Best I have are 1 foot ramps, which are fine but still don't give an awful lot of room....

Thanks!
KM
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from '95 til 2008: 1995 Pathfinder (frame rusted out, charitable parts donation)
from '91-'95: 1982 Westy Diesel (Smokey. Traded in for far too little!)
from '87-'91: 1980 VW Rabbit (my econoPorsche - passed on)
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Timwhy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koolmoe get a set of jack stands and you will use them alot!!
The ramps are good also but the jack stands and a large floor
jack work better and are more stable.

Helped my buddy Gus get his starter out on Sat, he's got an 85
Westy manual trans. Two man job in the driveway for this one.
The coolant hoses are in the way in the engine compartment, so
space is limited. We were able to get the starter diconnected and
removed from the bellhousing without any problems, but the bushing
would not come out. We tried my 7/16" tap and it grabbed alittle
but would not cut into the sides. We bought a new tap, but the same
result occured. The old bushing is so worn down that Gus will have to get
an 11mm tap or maybe 12mm to get the bushing out.

The new starter went in, but not the new bushing yet. The parts store
where the starter was purchased said that if you are using an old
bushing for a prolonged time with a new starter, your bellhousing
could get cracked from the starting.(BAD) So if you are chaging that starter
then maybe the good advice is to make sure the new bushing
is being installed. If only we had the 11 or12mm tap, this would have
been an hour job at most.

Back to Koolmoe's starter. Is your van an automatic trans? In the
Bentley is shows that there is two connections on the starter.
I do believe that the solenoid is grounded to the starter, could that
broken wire be touching the starter? Just throwing it out there.
If your Westy has an auto trans you do need a secound wire connected.
On page 27.13 shows what wires go to what position on the starter.
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Volksaholic
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim's info on the second wire to the starter in an auto is good... I've only had manual trans vans so I've never had that second wire, but with the yellow(?) stripe it didn't look like bulk wire purchased from a FLAPS. I'm curious as to where it goes... maybe check Bentley at lunch.

KM: First off, you can see from the pic (good pic, BTW! Smile ) that the broken wire and connector are corroded. You can also see that the big starter trigger wire has been spliced with a crimp connect. If it were my van I would be concerned that I have the same corrosion going on inside that crimp. Those crimp connects are okay at best, but they're really not a reliable way to make a long term connection as far as I'm concerned... especially not on a wire exposed to the elements that has to carry a decent amount of current.

That wire should be in a harness that is clipped up behind the firewall. Maybe the broken wire is included in that harness... I don't know... but you can probably free it up and pull it into the engine compartment where you can see it and work on it. I'd take that crimp out, inspect the wire and splice in some extra if need be. If it were my van I would solder the new wire in and shrink some of the water-proof heat shrink tube over it. If I didn't trust my soldering skills I would still take out the crimp, clean things up if they need it, use one of those "water-proof" crimps with the dielectric grease in them, then heat shrink over that.

You said Bentley doesn't show that wire, but it probably does in the wiring diagram. The hitch is it takes some serious orientation to read that diagram, even for me and I've been reading wiring diagrams and schematics since I was about 12! Go to the beginning of the wiring diagram section and read the pages that describe how those diagrams are laid out. Those pages will probably be pristine... nobody ever looks at them, but they do a good job of describing what's going on. If I recall the starter circuit is right near the beginning of your M.Y.'s diagram... maybe the first page. If you find the battery symbol it's easy to follow the fat red wire to the starter... kinda like finding Polaris by locating the Big Dipper.

Definitely buy jack stands and find a solid place to prop the van. Block the front tires. It will be a lot easier to work in that area with the rear wheel off... if you assign an hourly rate to the job the jack stands will pay for themselves in the time you don't have to scoot around the tire.

Braille: you say you can't really see the starter... welcome to the wonderful world of VW repair (most cars, really). If you stick with it you'll get good at "working by Braille" as I call it. There are a lot of times it's easier to work by feel rather than seeing what's going on. It's always easier if you can see what you're doing but you'll be surprised at how well you can visualize what's going on at your finger tips when you're working blind.

Lastly... it sounds like you're somewhat aware of the electrical principles involved, but MAKE SURE YOU DISCONNECT THE BATTERY BEFORE YOU START UNDOING THE FAT STARTER WIRES. Sorry... I was shouting... how rude of me. You've got enough current to weld with coming out of that battery... you don't want to take any chance of shorting things out, even if it means resetting your clock and stereo presets.

Paul
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windnsea
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my schematic for my '84 there are two red w/white striped wires going from the alternator to the starter. Probably a backup and a load sharing wire. Not a bad idea to crimp another connector onto the wire and reconnect. Drawing a large load from the alternator 'might' fry the other and then you'd only have the battery to limp in on.

To remove the starter I disconnect the hot lead to the battery behind the seat, then the rest, then go in and remove the air cleaner and throttle body to get a good access to the two starter bolts. The rest is a breeze.

I've never had to replace the bronze bushing in the bell housing though - just put some hi temp silicone grease in there after cleaning.
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