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Supa's notch build, AKA Going Rogue
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supaninja
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:41 am    Post subject: Supa's notch build, AKA Going Rogue Reply with quote

quick history of me. I have been in the VW scene since 1990: '72 super, '73 super, '73 beetle, '72 squareback, '62 beetle, '74 914, '71 super, and now '65 notch. Ya I like my supers, i'm an odd one, never went with the flow.
So i wandered very far into the dark side(import tuner scene), learned a lot about fuel injection, tuning, and turbos. I also realizied that I am really a VW guy and that is my true passion so I got my dream car... a '65 notch.
she's a little rough but a really really solid car. http://s59.photobucket.com/albums/g296/supaninjanick/project%20notch%202010/
So I got this '65 notch with disc brakes and a swing axle(4 lug), the body was just resting on the freshly done pan, a partial '65 wire harness sitting on the floorboard, a 1600 dp type 3 motor with a weber progressive out of the car, all the glass, front and rear WCM callook seals of unknown age, outer WCM seals for the popouts, WCM seals for the rear lights, all the lights including new hella clear blinker lens, red/clear sidemarker lens. I also got with it 6v red needle gauges, oh ya i got the clock working too. i got a few other things but thats pretty much it.
Here is what i have already hunt down/installed:
another wire harness(from a '67 squareback)
drivers side window regulator
front and rear trunk latch recievers
key for the doors cut(gabriel keys)
NOS dual circuit master cylinder(had to have it rebuilt)
dual circuit reservior
engine lid
12v bulbs
horn
speedo cable
ebrake cable
clutch cable
throttle cable
fuel sender
wiper arm
lap belts
WCM inner popout seals
ignition switch(still need to get it keyed, damn those things are expensive)
a couple steering columns for parts
dipstick
shift rod/coupler/bushing
tires-conti's 155/60 and 175/65's
3 hubcaps, still missing one
12v regulator
bellows boot, and one clamp
oil filler tube seal
all the brake hardlines and rubber brake lines
DOT 5 silicone brake fluid
steering damper
KYB short ft shocks
944 S2 24mm torsion bars(they didn't fit, too long. I might try to make some T1 IRS spring plates work one day)

So a local VW engine builder thinks I'm crazy for wanting to stuff a type 4 motor into the notch, he says its going to cost a lot and require a lot of extensive modification. True it requires a little bit of modifing, but nothing so far has been extreme in any way shape or for. Its definitely not been expensive, just have to look for the deals and know what OEM parts will work.

9-14-2010 update
Type 4 goodness:
1977 bus type 4 2L
Megasquirt 1, harness, gm iat, walbro fuel pump
bugpack bus header w/muffler
72-74 bus heat exchangers
200mm type 4 lightened flywheel
Jake Raby cam/lifters
new alternator
voltage regulator
411 air duct
less $1000 for all of that stuff

Scratch the EDIS setup, I got a much much better option...directly firing COPs...giggity! I don't even need to upgrade to MS2.

I got 6 Ford COPs and a engine harness for $11 off ebay
Ford VR sensor off ebay $10 the trigger wheel, I'll have the seller drill the 1.5" center hole, and i can drill the other 4 $33 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230444921167&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
4 coil drivers and a pcb from glen's garage is $34I already upgraded to MSextra firmware needed to do this.
What I get with this setup:
fully tunable ignition curve (derrrr, lol)
spark retard rev cut (EDIS doesn't do that)
2 step launch control (EDIS doesn't do that)
Shift light (can intergrate coolant overtemp warning light via MS)
switch cals on the fly
tons of added features with MSextra, I heart it so much
In keeping with my theme all that was less then buying a compufire module, cap, and rev limiting rotor for my DVDA dizzy. This build just keeps getting better and better.

ninja edit 11-14-2010:
Well the heads that came on my motor were both cracked. I found a set of good 1.7L heads for a good price. I got all new heavy duty valve train, and some 914 push rods for the Raby cam. Rimco is going to bore out the heads, valve job, lap in the valves, and assemble the heads. The 1.7 heads have a smaller combustion chamber so with my domed pistons and no shims/head gaskets, my CR should be around 8.5:1. I put new cam bearings into the case already, i still need new rod bearings. One of my cylinders was heavily pitted from rust too. The motor was $200 so I didn't expect everything to be perfect. Looks like I'll be right at $2000 for everything so I'm still on budget. Some side notes, I got a 914 1.8L plenum to replace the smashed up one that came with the motor, and I sold the breather that came with the motor, and got one with the hose fitting that works better for my setup(its a lot cleaner looking too). I still got lots of little stuff to get like coil drivers, trigger wheel, FW shims, and pigtails for the COPs/TPS. Its coming along, albeit a little slower then i would like.

stock goodies that you will need for a MS setup:
plenum/intake runners/throttle body
inj/fuel rail (stock bosch inj for all type 4's are 185cc, except 914 2.0L and 1.7L)
fuel pressure regulator
cylinder head temp sender(2,650 ohms @ 81F and 100 ohms @ normal operating temps) MS has a detailed how-to to use extended scales for us ACVW guys.
Auxilary Air Regulator (i'm going to use that for the cold start function, doesn't even need to be wired into MS. just wire it to the output of the fuel pump relay, and MS will automatically enrich the fuel mixture...pretty fucking slick setup)
harness-OPTIONAL! the injectors and the AAR all use Bosch EV1 connectors. They are about $6 a piece with pigtails, but if you have a harness then your good to go, those 5 connectors are all I'm using from my bus harness.

Non-stock goodies:
Megasquirt 1(if you go with edis you'll need MS2)
harness(I bought one pre assembled but you can make your own)
GM IAT with pigtail
Walbro 255lph fuel pump (stock one would work just fine if you already got a good one)
TPS-optional, but it looks like it will help on the transition from closed to open loop. MS uses MAP, RPM, and TPS to switch between open and closed loop. Its highly highly recommended!!! (I got a Ford TPS to work on my stock TB)
wideband o2 Ideally you'll want one with a analog output like a AEM UEGO or a innovative LS-1.
36-1 trigger wheel/vr sensor- optional, you can trigger MS with the coil (-) as well http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=97550&hl=trigger
Relays- I'm using HKE CMA31-C's (bosch type)with the socket/leads, you'll need one for the fuel pump and one for a "main relay" I bought them online a while back; with the socket, they are only a couple of bucks each.
fuses- a total of 7 fuses are needed for this install, you can do inlines or a fuse box. its up to your creativity/budget.
intake-the throttle body is 2.5", coupler, pipe, and air filter is all you need. can be easily pieced together with a good air filter for under $60. (i'm looking at a ATV filter for $25 that bolts on directly to the TB)
cable to laptop- I got a serial to USB, works great

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That should pretty much cover a megasquirt setup for us with t3/t4 fi engines. some of the things you can toss: AFM, EGR, cold start valve, intake, MPS, and ecu. I'll keep this thread alive with my progress. thanks for reading all of this.

Here is an excellent writeup from megasquirt, they even mention using the CHT and AAR for aircooled applications...nice! http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mwire.htm
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Megasquirted Type 4 powered Notch http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=427890&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Blog of Doom http://supaninjanick.wordpress.com/


Last edited by supaninja on Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:43 am; edited 11 times in total
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Russ Wolfe
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of your major hurdles with the T-4 conversion, is the cooling air supply. You will need a boot adapter from the existing plenum to the T-4. The one from a T-4 wagon works.
Also, see if you can work the fuel system air intake to pull from the plenum too like original.
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You already had it running with the 1600! You could bolt in a 2275 if you wanted faster. It will take you 2-3 years to hack a bigger/slower/hotter bus engine into it? Wink
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supaninja
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm absolutely planning on using the stock bellows boot, 411/412 shroud or modify the stock t3 shroud and have it welded to sheetmetal from this template http://www.aircooledtech.com/T4-T3-tin-adapter.pdf
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

supaninja wrote:
I'm absolutely planning on using the stock bellows boot, 411/412 shroud or modify the stock t3 shroud and have it welded to sheetmetal from this template http://www.aircooledtech.com/T4-T3-tin-adapter.pdf


Cool air to the carbs is important too.
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supaninja
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
You already had it running with the 1600! You could bolt in a 2275 if you wanted faster. It will take you 2-3 years to hack a bigger/slower/hotter bus engine into it? Wink


no hacking here, the car will not get cut, and besides the small mod for the bellow boot the type 4 cooling tin will remain unmolested. the pan already has a fuel return line running through it. its going to be a really clean install. I might have my motorcycle sold within the week so this will take no more then a couple of months to complete. For the record a 2275 will cost twice as much as this conversion's total cost. also this motor will not run any hotter the a t3 motor(has a bigger oil cooler).

I just love how everyone calls anything a thats 'not a stock to the car' setup a "hack" on here.
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supaninja
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ Wolfe wrote:
supaninja wrote:
I'm absolutely planning on using the stock bellows boot, 411/412 shroud or modify the stock t3 shroud and have it welded to sheetmetal from this template http://www.aircooledtech.com/T4-T3-tin-adapter.pdf


Cool air to the carbs is important too.


I have been thinking about that too, I'll figure something out after the motor is installed. most likely a low-profile airbox with a tube to the stock air inlet on the rear apron. since its FI and i'll being using a generic IAT, i'll freedom to do what i need to for the intake.
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Russ Wolfe
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It isn't a hack, if it is done right.
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supaninja
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

exactly, its a custom flywheel with a type 1 clutch, i'm going to mod the bus oil filler to the stock oil filler/dipstick tube, stock type 4 FI, 1" shorter type 4 j pipes to a bus header with a custom muffler, fab a bellow boot mount to the shroud, with stock unmolested cooling tin...seems straight forward and clean to me, especially since i can still use the stock engine lid.

this car is completely solid and unmolested, i have zero desire to start hacking it up to fit an engine into it.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

supaninja wrote:
Russ Wolfe wrote:
supaninja wrote:
I'm absolutely planning on using the stock bellows boot, 411/412 shroud or modify the stock t3 shroud and have it welded to sheetmetal from this template http://www.aircooledtech.com/T4-T3-tin-adapter.pdf


Cool air to the carbs is important too.


I have been thinking about that too, I'll figure something out after the motor is installed. most likely a low-profile airbox with a tube to the stock air inlet on the rear apron. since its FI and i'll being using a generic IAT, i'll freedom to do what i need to for the intake.


If you weld up a custom stainless steel Cold air duct/filter AND get the engine lid ON then I'm happy! Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talk to Tom. He's got a clean istall of a T4 in his Notch.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=32831
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

localboy wrote:
Talk to Tom. He's got a clean istall of a T4 in his Notch.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=32831


ya his build has been the blueprint to my build, instead of carbs i'm going with the FI but pretty much the same setup. Type 4 motor just seems like a great upgrade to a type 3.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toms' is a home-brewed FI setup and he's up-grading the tranny with a bus box now.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SHHHHH, I have a 1.9 wasserboxer sitting in my garage, and a 66 fastback with no engine.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought he had IDF's with cut down mani's, i'm PMing him, thanks for the heads up.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ Wolfe wrote:
SHHHHH, I have a 1.9 wasserboxer sitting in my garage, and a 66 fastback with no engine.


Shhh I heard that Russ Shhh
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've seen guys but type 1 cranks and i think heads, cut the water jackets off and make those wasserboxer engines aircooled engines.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The drag guys do.
Not cost effective for a daily driver street car.
I have not decided where the Wasser will go. It is already rebuilt with Dellerto carbs.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks like i got my motorcycle sold tomorrow, then the parts buying frenzy begins. I'll try to document it all in this thread. The ultimate goal is to have a reliable daily with a little umph, while not doing a hack job, ie if i ever decide to go the purist route all i have to do is stuff a stock(aka slow/unreliable) 1500 back in.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing unreliable about a stock engine.
I have never had a stock VW fail to get me home.
OOPS, take that back. My '81 diesel Caddy fuel gelled on me at -20F.
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